#256 David Gilbert — Destination Cleveland And Greater Cleveland Sports Commission

David Gilbert [00:00:00]:
And still, this is still the case. You go to Edgewater park any beautiful summer day, there is a line of people, wedding parties, families, people waiting to take pictures on that sign. People just connect with this city. It could be the little chip on the shoulder, it could be the, the, the hardscrabble nature of it. It could be the underdog mentality. But whatever it is, honestly, I'm thankful for. I'm thankful that we have something so unique. The key is how do we harness it to help make sure that it

Jeffrey Stern [00:00:34]:
advances Cleveland welcome to the Lay of the Land Podcast where we are exploring what people are building in Cleveland and throughout Northeast Ohio. I am your host Jeffrey Stern and today I had the real pleasure of speaking with David Gilbert, President and CEO of Destination Cleveland and the Greater Cleveland Sports Commission. For more than three decades, David has worked to help Cleveland compete, attract visitors, host major events and change the way the city is perceived both by the outside world and by Clevelanders ourself. Under his leadership, Cleveland has hosted events like the NFL Draft, NBA All Star Game, MLB All Star Game, NCAA Women's Final Four and the Republican National Convention, while Destination Cleveland has helped drive meaningful growth in both visitation and visitor spending across the region. In our conversation, David and I explore what it means to get people to say yes to Cleveland, the evolution of the city's brand and civic pride, the role of major events in building momentum, the importance of place branding, and the generational opportunity to reconnect Cleveland to its lake and riverfront. David has been one of Cleveland's most important civic storytellers and builders and so for me it was a lot of fun to hear his perspective on all things Cleveland pride, perception and helping a city more fully believe in itself. So please enjoy this wonderful conversation. Lay of the Land is brought to you and is proudly sponsored by Roundstone Insurance.

Jeffrey Stern [00:02:00]:
Headquartered in Rocky River, Ohio. Roundstone shares Lay of the Land's same passion for bold ideas and lasting impact from our community's entrepreneurs, innovators and leaders. Since 2005, Roundstone has pioneered a self funded captive health insurance model that delivers robust savings for small and medium sized businesses. They are part of the solution to rising healthcare costs, helping employers offer affordable, high quality care while driving job creation and economic growth throughout Northeast Ohio. Like many of the voices featured on Lay of the Land, including Roundstone's founder and CEO Mike Schroeder, Roundstone believes entrepreneurship, innovation and community to be the cornerstones of progress. To learn more about how Roundstone is transforming employee health benefits by empowering employers to save thousands in per employee, per year healthcare costs, please visit roundstoneinsurance.com Roundstone Insurance built for entrepreneurs, backed by innovation, committed to Cleveland.

Speaker C [00:02:58]:
So, David, welcome to Lay the Land. I'm very excited for this conversation because I feel in a lot of ways we're kind of telling a similar story, trying to help people see Cleveland more clearly. And one of the, call it, animating ideas behind this podcast has always been that Cleveland, to me at least, is far more interesting, ambitious, capable than the outside narrative often gives it credit for, and maybe at times more than we give ourselves credit for, at least historically. Yes. And obviously your work with Destination Cleveland and the Greater Cleveland Sports Commission has. Has really been about that specifically, but really at a totally different scale and for far longer than I've been at

Jeffrey Stern [00:03:49]:
it here in Cleveland.

Speaker C [00:03:50]:
So I'm very excited to get your perspective on all of it.

David Gilbert [00:03:54]:
Well, looking forward to it. And I think your premise is absolutely right. And I would tell you from the start, I really appreciate what you do and your storytelling and highlighting so much of the people that make this place great.

Speaker C [00:04:09]:
Well, thank you. It means a lot coming from you, but I think that's as great a place to start as any. And I thought we could open the conversation with a journey back in time to when you realized that part of your life's work was going to be

Jeffrey Stern [00:04:25]:
changing the way that people perceive Cleveland

Speaker C [00:04:29]:
and where, where that really came into, you know, your.

David Gilbert [00:04:32]:
Yeah, you know, I think, I think you realize things along the way. I don't know if, you know, when I ended up getting into the type of work that I do, I, I thought of it in those terms, and I've been very lucky. I pretty much my entire career has been involved in civic organizations engaged in advancing Cleveland. And certainly for the last now, for the vast majority of it, between Sports Commission, Destination Cleveland, it's really been very much about. About getting people to say yes to Cleveland, about competing, you know, sort of, as someone once said it not that long ago, and I kind of liked the idea of it. You put on that Cleveland jersey every day, and, you know, there's a lot to it. Each organization is a little different. But at the end of the day, what you realize as you move on is it's my job and all the people that I work with.

David Gilbert [00:05:34]:
Every day, it is about getting people to say yes to Cleveland. And it's largely people from the outside who, when you're competing, getting them to choose Cleveland over other places, getting them to invest their dollars, getting them to invest their interest. But every day we're competing. Sometimes it's even locals, as you said, that we have to believe in ourselves a little bit more. So I can't say I necessarily set out to do that per se, but it's where I've, you know, I'm incredibly fortunate to have been doing something my whole career that I'm passionate about in this community and, you know, in being able to try and make a real difference in my community.

Speaker C [00:06:23]:
So if you were not originally, maybe thinking about it in those terms of. Of altering the perception people have of Cleveland, maybe in that competition framing of it as well, what were you originally drawn to about the opportunity and how did you kind of grow into them? And just what inspired you to take on this challenge of putting on that Cleveland jersey every day in the first place?

David Gilbert [00:06:48]:
Yeah, I think as I look back, I've always been driven to make my community better. And I'm a big believer in life. We're part of different communities and, you know, maybe the place you live, it's around certain interests. I think people in their lives go in and out of different. Different communities based on their life circumstances. And I think I have all. And just looking back, I've always been a person that's been sort of deep rooted in my communities and in the communities I've been part of. You know, this is going back to high school and college and after I've tended to be the president of the club and those kinds of things with, I think, now looking back on it, the goal of wanting to make those communities better.

David Gilbert [00:07:35]:
And I do think early, early on, I fell in love with Cleveland. I mean, I'm from here, but you experience it when you're, you know, you're growing up and you're playing your sports and, you know, doing your activities. You know, I never thought about it as my community, you know, even. Even, you know, coming down to Indians games with my, you know, my dad and my brother and friends and Browns games and Cavs games, all that stuff. You know, I think I had this. I never thought about it as being. Just being so in love with my community, but ultimately that's really what it is. And this is just a place in Cleveland that I am so deeply passionate about and feel very lucky to be a part of.

David Gilbert [00:08:19]:
And, you know, a place that can be frustrating like a lot of other places. But, man, when you have an opportunity to try and make your community better, I think that's a very fortunate place to be.

Speaker C [00:08:30]:
So you have this kind of unusual vantage point of getting to lead two organizations that are Very much working to that end to improve our local community. Two organizations that are different on paper, but I think deeply connected in practice. And I'd love to understand just for one, maybe you could just outline what is the Greater Cleveland Sports Commission and what is destination Cleveland. What are they actually tasked with doing and how you came to kind of come to this unusual vantage point and how you think about the inner workings between the work that you're doing.

David Gilbert [00:09:08]:
Well, I would say in most other places, actually only every other place I know of, except for one cities where you have independent nonprofit sports commissions that are very separate from their destination marketing organization or cvb, they're different organizations. It's kind of a rare, unique thing that I could tell you a little about how it came about that I run both, but they are independent organizations. They are separate boards, separate staff, separate funding. My assistant and I are the only shared staff members, but as you mentioned, I'd say they're very complimentary and close cousins. And so sports Commission, we're a 501c3 nonprofit. We were formed about 26, 27 years ago and I was, I was the first staff. There were two staff me and I was able to hire somebody else. And what we do in practice, we compete against cities from around the country, sometimes around the world for the rights to host major events.

David Gilbert [00:10:15]:
And, and then we also get very involved and engaged in the running and managing of those events operationally, logistically, financially and otherwise. And we're not a big organization. We have 16 full time staff people, a couple part time, an amazing, amazing C level board, mostly C level business leaders and some also, you know, highest level of sports, sports media, great participation from city and county. And at the end of the day it is that unique intersection of economic development and sports. And Cleveland has become one of year in and year out, the most successful organizations of our kind based on number of events we host, size, scale, economic impact. There is a national association of organizations like ours, probably 250 cities that are members. There's probably 30 like us that are independent full service organizations. The others might be a salesperson or two at a, at a destination marketing organization, but it's highly competitive and the events that we bring in.

David Gilbert [00:11:25]:
So this year is a pretty, pretty good year for us. We're hosting 20 national events and these are events that, but for our organization would not be in Cleveland. They, they are, you know, we, we were the organization that played the sole or biggest role in, in attracting them to town. And then really in every case we are some sort of management or financial partner. We loved ones where we don't have to do much and others you might be awarded five, six years ahead of time and you have lots of work in between. There are big events. You know, over the last five, six years, we've hosted NBA All Star Game, NFL Draft, women's Final four, Major League Baseball, All Star Game. This probably our biggest one this year.

David Gilbert [00:12:07]:
NCAA Division 1 Wrestling Championship, brought in 18,000 people over over three, four, five days live on ESPN. Had about $20 million in new direct spending in Cleveland that wouldn't have been here. And those 20 events will have somewhere just under $100 million spent in Northeast Ohio from people outside the region that otherwise wouldn't have been here. Many of the events are ones we don't, people don't hear about, or a big youth volleyball tournament or, you know, the, the, a big, a big youth fencing tournament or the NCAA Women's Bowling Championship. But the common denominator is they bring a lot of people here a lot of money. And oftentimes for those big events, a lot of, a lot of national notoriety. Our organization, I would say really the secret sauce is our goal is to provide more service to the events rights holders, the people who own those events, than any other city in the country where oftentimes we are chosen. Where they are choosing the Greater Cleveland Sports Commission is much or more than they're choosing Cleveland.

David Gilbert [00:13:10]:
Cleveland has to work. But if we do things for them, whether it's our team and our interns on their hands and knees for a day laying sport court, saving them $20,000 in labor costs, or running and managing an entire event, big or small, now it's our job to manage those resources the right way. We love events that don't need a lot of our help, quite frankly, but that's sort of the key component. And we have a lot of great events lined up for the Future. Special Olympics USA Games for 2030. Many of these go years out. And then destination Cleveland is what sort of in around the world, our destination Marketing organizations are CVBs, convention and visitors Bureaus. It's also a nonprofit and we oversee the travel and tourism industry for Northeast Ohio.

David Gilbert [00:14:03]:
And there are organizations like ours representing every city and county in the country. They are all in one form or fashion funded through a hotel occupancy tax. So when you are, when you, when you stay in a hotel, Airbnb, vrbo, anywhere in this country and you look on your bill, you'll see the taxes. There is some portion of that that's Outlined that will be going to organizations like ours. Our job is to attract more people here than our peers. So we're an organization again. Terrific board, a lot of corporate leaders, but also heads of major institutions like the rock and roll of Fame, Playhouse Square, the Cleveland Museum of Art, things like that. A lot of people involved in marketing.

David Gilbert [00:14:45]:
There's a lot of specialties around what we do. Great representation again, city, county and other organizations with which we connect with the metro parks, Cleveland neighborhood, progress. And there's really three things the organization does at its core. One is we attract people. We're up to now about 20 million visits a year every year for convention, leisure, business, travel. We've also gotten very involved with other partners in attraction of talent because what we do, how the city is positioned, the reputation of the city, the perception of the city is critical to whether or not someone chooses, whether they're even open to the consideration of choosing to move to a place. And you know, now, certainly more than five years ago, way more than 10, 15 years ago, jobs follow talent more than talent follows the job. People, many, many people can live wherever they want.

David Gilbert [00:15:36]:
So having a place that people really want to be is critical. And we have a lot of research around this and we see that type of work. The attraction of people is really short and long term. Most center industry look at the short term. So you've got again, upwards of 20 million visits a year. They spend well over a billion dollars. It supports 80,000 jobs in the county. It's a very large industry and we are a growth industry nearly every year.

David Gilbert [00:16:04]:
For the past, the increase in growth and the number of visits to Cleveland has grown faster than the state, has grown faster than the nation. But here's where the long term is critically important is what we know is that by far people who have experienced Cleveland and really the number one way either live here or you visit here or in certain niches, temporary residents, like going to college. But people who've experienced Cleveland are far, far more likely to be open to moving to Cleveland, to living here, to investing here, even to retiring here. So the critical long term nature of getting people to visit here, especially for a city like Cleveland that has battle perception issues, is absolutely critical for the future growth for the next generation of this community. So attracting people is one big pillar. Second pillar is we oversee the perception of for most importantly, the biggest part of our job is for people outside of Cleveland. Our primary customer are people who live outside the region, who don't know the region. We're actually about to embark on a significant, really significant, new multi year whole program related to perception.

David Gilbert [00:17:17]:
And I won't get into the detail. Maybe we'll talk about a little later in the podcast. But because of some groundbreaking research out of Europe that we are subscribing to, we believe strongly in that helps to quantify perception's role in attraction of talent, perception's role in attraction of visitation and of capital. So changing perception and for locals Cleveland is a city that has suffered for a long time. As we talked about early in the podcast, you know, people who may not believe in themselves as much as they should as it relates to the community. It's changed dramatically over the past 10 years and we, we measure it constantly. But it's quite frankly, it's critical. It's a business issue.

David Gilbert [00:17:55]:
It is a business issue. If locals don't recommend their community, others aren't going to take it. And then the third thing we do is we actually have gotten very involved and this is a little unique for an organization like ours. What we call destination development, how we look, act and feel as a visitor destination, oftentimes we don't control that product. We don't control what connects the dots between places that people like to visit, whether it's Edgewater park or the Rock and Roll hall of Fame or sports teams culture, on and on. But we bring people together, we measure it, we find efficiencies, and we bring together the right partners to try to enhance that experience. Our annual budget is about $22 million a year, pretty standard for a city our size. You know, many, it's actually probably slightly below average.

David Gilbert [00:18:45]:
But our job is to spend those dollars and get a bigger piece of the visitor economy than our peers. We've got a staff of about 65, 70 people and very passionate about what they do.

Speaker C [00:18:57]:
Lay of the Land is brought to

Jeffrey Stern [00:18:59]:
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Speaker C [00:19:50]:
firms in the country. So there's quite, quite a lot to unpack there. Trying to think the best follow up. Well, I guess in sort of startup vernacular, there's this idea of product market fit. And, you know, at its best, the market is pulling the product out of you rather than you having to push it. Yes. And when you say you're, you know, selling Cleveland, for one, like, how do you think about the product itself? You mentioned kind of the set of attractions, all these events, the reputation, but just what is it that you're. That you're actually selling? And when it.

Speaker C [00:20:30]:
When it works, what about it is working?

David Gilbert [00:20:33]:
So I think if you look at many, many, many communities, when they're marketing, they are marketing features, we think that's really not the way to go. We are very, very into and believe strongly in the idea of a place brand. And if you talk to people around the country, around the world in sort of the field of place branding, it's very emotional. At the end of the day, we are a branded product. Our goal is to get people to use our product if we think of our community. And you really have to get to the core and an understanding of what a place is and how it affects people. And so our place brand, it's not a marketing campaign. Those are things that come off of the brand.

David Gilbert [00:21:27]:
But at the end of the day, you want to get people to. Our job is to get people to consider Cleveland as a place to visit. How are we even in their consideration set that our product, they would be open to? So the first thing you have to do is you have to make an emotional connection. And our brand is really around who we are as people, our history. It's not about our features. It's not the rock and roll hall of Fame. It's not our sports, it's not our culinary parks. Great, amazing stuff.

David Gilbert [00:21:56]:
Those are. Those are woven into the brand, the place brand. But so much of it is the people. So much of it is our history. So much of it is sort of the sophisticated grit, if you will, of Cleveland and what makes us special and unique. And you will see in our marketing and everything we do around our brand, it's locals that tell the story. It's locals that tell the story of who we are, what we do. We are the people that experience it.

David Gilbert [00:22:20]:
Now, if you get people into that consideration set, then you utilize that information to help them, try to connect them, to say, okay, there are the things here you like and people like different things, but there are those things you like. And here's why you should consider Cleveland again as that place to visit, but also potentially place to live, to invest. And how do we make it easy for you to do that? How do you, how do you. We really talk a lot about the customer journey, but at the end of the day, Jeffrey, it is about having an understanding truly of who you are and making that connection with your potential customer. The best description I've ever heard of place brand is you have your place, you know, and for us it's Cleveland. And by the way, what someone two and three states over, they don't know Shaker Heights or West Lake or even, you know, Medina Lake, Ashtabula county, they know Cleveland. That is the core, that, that's how we're known. It doesn't mean the municipality of Cleveland, but, but this region is from the outside world is, is Cleveland.

David Gilbert [00:23:27]:
And, and the best way to describe it is you take that word Cleveland and it equals. And, and just think of a heart. Like that's how you, if you do your job right in a brand, if you've gotten it right, it is that emotional, visceral reaction people have to a place. So if you think of any type of place, pick a city, if we throw out Pittsburgh or Tampa or you say Costa Rica or, or whatever it is, there's gonna be immediately some visceral reaction you have to that place. Might make you feel good, might make you feel not so good in many ways that's immaterial. But you're not talking about. Let's deeply think of Cleveland as a place to visit. And if you like rock and roll, it's not.

David Gilbert [00:24:06]:
The first thing you have to hook em with is what's in here. What is that emotional, visceral, instant reaction to that place. And that's where our work on perception is really critical. Yeah.

Speaker C [00:24:19]:
Well, you more than anyone else have probably spent the most time thinking about the perception people have of Cleveland. What is the brand that precedes Cleveland? What is the brand that Clevelanders think about themselves? How has it changed over the last 25 years? What do you see as kind of the arc and trajectory of the brand of Cleveland? And what do you feel you've changed your mind about the most in this journey as well?

David Gilbert [00:24:45]:
It's a great question. I think I'll say that we're a very data driven organization and very metrics driven organization and we have done a lot of price since 2012 or 13, a lot of deep research into perception. I will say that the research now is much deeper. But I'll tell you A huge aha. We had. And this was very unique for our industry and our type of organization. We kind of look at things sort of from the inside out, which is you think of destination marketing organizations. You know, when people might see a pure Michigan ad, people in Michigan aren't seeing that.

David Gilbert [00:25:32]:
Right. That's the Michigan State Tourism Department trying to get people out. And that's just one that we have seen in Cleveland over years and happens to have been really successful. Well, what we. We did some research back in 2013 and we wanted, you know, Cleveland was a little bit of a woe is us place. And. And we felt it didn't deserve that. And so we did some research, and what we found was that 34% of people in north.

David Gilbert [00:26:01]:
In Cuyahoga county would recommend Cleveland as a place to visit for their friends and family. Turns out that's a pretty abysmal number. So we also did the same research in Allegheny county, and we did it for Pittsburgh and we did it for Detroit, and we found both of those cities were in the high 50s, low 60s. So we came out and we said, all right, one, there's a real business problem here because with starting to get a huge advent in social media and you know, what had been 10 years before that, the traditional way of where people got information of where to visit, which was travel magazines and outdoor print, almost didn't exist anymore. That recommendations from locals consistently was in the top three. And now it's. It's. It still remains there and it manifests differently because what locals say also gets fed into LLMs and.

David Gilbert [00:26:54]:
And. And, you know, but. But the end of the day, it's sort of what we see on our phone, and it's so driven by locals. So if locals were one of the top three resources someone utilized in choosing a place to visit, and only 34% would say they would recommend it. We had a big problem. So we started. We worked with local media who also saw it as a problem for them. Less people being here, as less customers, less people advertising.

David Gilbert [00:27:24]:
I mean, this was. Went to a lot of folks in the business community and said, we have a real problem here. And we started a real dedicated effort. I don't want to say a campaign. We had a campaign, but it was lots of different pieces. And ultimately now we are at 92% of locals that would recommend Cleveland as a place to visit. We way over. It's incredible.

David Gilbert [00:27:48]:
In fact, I would tell you, we are noted around the world in that change in our industry. We literally have won awards and are noted in Conferences all over the world. But now what we have to get to is it's great that they do that now. We need to utilize that tool. And how do you get locals to help convert people? So I think that's one real significant piece. I think from the outside perception in, we have seen a change, and we measure it harder to change. These are some things that go back decades, false narratives, some true narratives. But yet changing perception is just a very hard thing to do because people, day in, day out, away from Cleveland aren't thinking of Cleveland.

David Gilbert [00:28:36]:
So like any product, we're not just competing against, hey, think of Cleveland differently and consider us differently than you might Pittsburgh or Detroit or Louisville or Columbus or Indianapolis. Kind of a, you know, sort of. Sort of regional peer stats, you know, competing against Coke. We're competing against espn. We're, you know, take your pick. So it's not easy, but we've seen some change and we think this new program we're going to be doing will. Will play a big role. I think what I've noticed a lot, and we just play it.

David Gilbert [00:29:05]:
This is. We. We are an incredibly prideful city. Incredibly. And. And I really believe, and I hear this from people, peers all over the country, like there's something sort of in the water here in Cleveland that people have. Have an incredibly strong emotional tie to their. To their home city.

David Gilbert [00:29:25]:
Now, it can play in positive or negative ways, sometimes both. But, you know, I think of, you know, part of sort of a real manifestation of our brand has been this script Cleveland. And it's been out there now for. For probably 13, 14 years. We have these script Cleveland signs in strategic places around the community with beautiful sights. You go to Edge.

Speaker C [00:29:49]:
I have a mini one right there.

David Gilbert [00:29:51]:
Oh, I love it. That's funny. I just saw it. I just noticed it. You go to Edgewater park, and still. This is still the case. You go to Edgewater park any beautiful summer day. There is a line of people, wedding parties, families, people waiting to take pictures on that sign.

David Gilbert [00:30:09]:
So much so that we now start to have volunteers out there on certain weekends, 10 days, just to take people's pictures. We're thankful because they post it, but it is. There is something. People just connect with this city again. It could be the little chip on the shoulder. It could be the hardscrabble nature of it. It could be the underdog mentality. But whatever it is, honestly, I'm thankful for it.

David Gilbert [00:30:38]:
I'm thankful that we have something so unique. The key is how do we harness it to. To help make sure that it advances Cleveland.

Speaker C [00:30:48]:
I'm sort of fascinated by the cultural anthropology piece of all this. So what. What actually changed from 2013 that powered the transition from Clevelanders as net detractors of our own city to being Net promoters at the level of advocacy where we're the top and most prideful, most celebratory of our own city. I mean, that's a remarkable journey in such a short amount of time.

David Gilbert [00:31:17]:
I think there's a couple of things I think, look, I'm thankful for the efforts our organization's had and many others who've helped. And really, in all the different campaigns we've had hashtag campaigns and also many others now, hashtags aren't used a whole lot anymore. But it was about getting people to appreciate what they love best about their city. And honestly, that's what our brand is. That's what our heart and soul is. It's not about as great as the Rock and Roll hall of Fame is or Playoff Square for some people. Sure, they do love that. But it's also an amazing sandwich shop.

David Gilbert [00:31:52]:
It's the dog park you like. It's the people around you. And so I do think there has been so much of pushing the appreciation for what truly is here. And I think that is different than many other communities. But I also think that, you know, we've also recognized, I think 2016 in particular was a. Was a pretty incredible year. You know, we. We hosted the Republican convention, which, you know, I'd say it was a lot less divisive then than now, but we took incredible pride in the fact that we hosted a political convention and it went so well, and we were bidding on either the Democrat or.

David Gilbert [00:32:30]:
Or Republican convention. The media followed the story. So when we were bidding on the RNC, there were 12 cities publicly declared. It got down to eight, got down to four, got down to Cleveland and Dallas. And the media was every site visit, you know, with us on the road. It was about a year, about a 15 month process. And when we won it, it was. It was, you know, you know, it was, it was.

David Gilbert [00:32:55]:
The celebration of. It was beyond anything I could have imagined. Obviously, we were deep in it. We were, you know, we wanted to win this thing for Cleveland, and nobody thought Cleveland stood a chance except for us. And. But you had that happen. You had the Cavs winning the championship not long after. You had the guardians in the world, the Indians, then in the World Series and those things.

David Gilbert [00:33:17]:
I just feel like a little bit of a flip was switched or a switch was flipped in 16 that we really celebrated a lot of things. I also think it's just we help propagate an attitude, and an attitude instead of. It's just Cleveland. It's a damn right you're Cleveland. And I think you have to speak that way. I think you have to believe it. And I think when people believe it, it spreads. If you do it right, it's contagious.

David Gilbert [00:33:45]:
And I think it's a real intentional, deliberate effort to, to, to. To. To be out there being incredibly prideful of your city, of celebrating the big wins, of letting the community understand that, that when we, when we are awarded a big sporting event or some big meeting or convention, it wasn't somebody throwing a dart at a dartboard that landed on Cleveland. It was, hey, we beat these places. And you know, we are out there telling that story every day. But more importantly, at least in our marketing, we're having locals tell that story. It doesn't come from some institution, organization that's they expect it. It is locals talking about it.

David Gilbert [00:34:28]:
And honestly, I'm not pulling your chain, Jeffrey. It's stuff like what you do because the stuff that you do and others who are out there doing the same, it's. You're doing it because you love Cleveland. And I don't know if that, you know, it. We may not understand it here, but it's different than most other places. It's, it just, it just is. It's not that, you know, cities like Nashville and, and Seattle and, you know, and in Austin, it's cities that people in their minds think that I've never been there, I've never seen it, but I feel like I want to go there.

Jeffrey Stern [00:35:06]:
Right.

David Gilbert [00:35:06]:
You have some picture of those types of cities. I don't think there's the same visceral, deep rooted pride in general in the people in those communities that is the same as Cleveland. And I think what we've tried to do really hard was harness that, to recognize it and harness it.

Speaker C [00:35:22]:
Yeah, I mean, a lot there resonates. I've always sort of felt attitudes are self fulfilling in their nature. Pessimism kind of realizes pessimistic outcomes and optimism kind of realizes optimistic ones.

David Gilbert [00:35:35]:
Yes.

Speaker C [00:35:36]:
But there is, there is a, there is something special about the Cleveland pride. I, I've been fortunate to have traveled a bunch and I've been to a lot of those places. I've been to Austin, Seattle. Right. It's not the same. I mean, people love those places. But there, there is like a uniqueness about the way Clevelanders feel about Cleveland. Yep, yep.

David Gilbert [00:36:00]:
And it's, look, it doesn't mean everything is perfect here. You know, we have big city problems like every city, and it doesn't take away that those are great places. But I think, you know, you talked about, I think we were an incredibly pessimistic city as a people. And I think that, you know, that whole adage of like, oh, we don't deserve good things, I think that's changing, you know, and some people talk about it, but you know what, there's a lot of things in the city where we are kicking butt, but it's also, look, I think it makes us work harder. I really do. I think it makes us work harder. I think it makes us appreciate the wins even more. And, and, and it, it, it binds us together in, in, in very special ways.

David Gilbert [00:36:47]:
Now, all that said, there's a lot of work to be done. We're still a slow growth city, but we're starting to see things on a very different trajectory. And I mean, I, I feel so optimistic about the future of this city. What's happening on our lakefront and our riverfront. I think our lakefront, what we are finally having, you know, doing things that are going to be generational change. And a lot of it is, you know, different leadership that has great forward thinking in different things. And this is, this is not, you know, this just is, is just in general, I think we are finally getting to be a city that is willing to take more risk. We were an incredibly risk averse place.

David Gilbert [00:37:26]:
You know that even better than I do. And you have to take risk. And I think we're, I think we are, you know, a lot of that is starting to change.

Speaker C [00:37:36]:
Yeah, well, I mean, it hearkens to something we've talked about before, but it's, it's, it's deep rooted in the history of Cleveland as a place that used to be at the forefront of risk taking and that sort of mentality which is what propelled it, you know, in 1949 to be between Detroit and Cleveland, you know, kindred places, the most affluent, large metropolitan geographies in the entire country. You know, above New York, above San Francisco, above Seattle, above all these places today that are where they are. But there really isn't another city in the country that can empathize with the swing of the pendulum and kind of how drastic it was. And it's great that it's swinging back, I think.

David Gilbert [00:38:20]:
Yeah, I think you're right. And it is. You know, it's funny, I would try to read a lot of Cleveland history, you know, what you're saying is so true. And, you know, if you go back, I think it's, you know, 1880 to 1920, more patents per capita out of Cleveland than any other city in America. You know, we were the Silicon Valley of that era. But I also think what's interesting is while incredible wealth, you know, John D. Rockefeller, first billionaire, made his money here, but was also fascinating if you read about it, this, this pad. We were seen as the new money.

David Gilbert [00:38:57]:
And you had New York, which was still the financial center of. Of the country, and these financiers in New York that would look down their nose at Cleveland and Clevelanders, even though they had wealth. The Van Swearingen brothers, all the, you know, there was a lot of wealth here, but they looked down. They were new money. It was, it was dirty industries, you know, was. It was oil refining and, and, you know, the stuff that built America, shipbuilding and, and, and so on. But I think it's. So you think even back then, the, the wealthy industrialists still had a little bit of a complex of, you know, we're not quite good enough.

David Gilbert [00:39:35]:
That's why you see this, you know, the beautiful Cleveland Museum of Art and Severance hall and the Playhouse Square theaters and a lot of our really beautiful downtown edifices that were built where, if you, if you read a lot of history, a lot of them were built to sort of show New York that we're not some backwater. We have buildings as beautiful as yours. We can afford buildings as beautiful. It's just fascinating because even back then there was this chip on her shoulder. And so I think it is a little bit part of the DNA of Cleveland.

Speaker C [00:40:09]:
Would you distill what you've learned about what it takes to change people's perception?

David Gilbert [00:40:14]:
I mean, I think what research will show is you have to experience it that, you know, and we just, we know that we know when they experience it, their perception is dramatically higher, period. And there's more, by the way. There's a lot more we're going to be doing over the next couple of years related to that, especially around Cleveland expats and in engaging them in some really unique ways. I also think I have seen so often when, when we get people to say yes to Cleveland, they, they are amazed at the passion of Clevelanders who are trying to get them to choose their city. And, and I would say oftentimes from what I hear, sometimes our sales pitches may not be as, you know, based on what it is. Others may have their act together more on. On, you know, the nuts and bolts the, you know, the incentives, the investment, the, you know, and that's why we lose out. But I could tell you, you go head to head with, with, you know, when we're pitching someone to choose Cleveland, when we go head to head and if we're on an equal footing with any other city, we will win way, way more often than not.

David Gilbert [00:41:31]:
Because we know that people in different, all kinds of different organizations, even locals when they're here, because we hear when people are coming in, they are actually amazed at the people, just the people in this community. This has happened numerous times. We had a, not that long ago there was a, a big conference that we were looking to get to Cleveland. Something really, really high profile and well, and actually this was when we were bidding to host Special Olympics came down to Cleveland and Nashville, big year long competition. Last summer we had our big site visit. The media was focused on it and one of the people from Special Olympics, their Special Olympics North America, their headquarters was at the airport, going home, sitting at a bar at the airport, you know, just having a bite to eat. Before he got on his plan was wearing a special Olympic shirt. And the bartender said, cause he told us the story.

David Gilbert [00:42:29]:
He said, oh, you're with Special Olympics. How is your visit? I really hope you choose Cleveland. He's like, come on, somebody had to have put you up to this. It was just. Grant had nothing to do with it. But that is, it even comes down to just the everyday locals, not just people like me and others who spend our time trying to get people to say yes to Cleveland. There's just a passion around people talking about this city when they're trying to get others to choose it for whatever that is for investment and so on. That comes across differently than other places.

David Gilbert [00:43:06]:
And I've just learned that we're fortunate and we have to foster it and we have to utilize it, we have to harness it. But it's there. It's there and it's something that is innate. It's not something you could train. It is so much, we hear this, it is so much from in here. It is so much from the heart. And you know, as organizations work better together as we, you know, we have better tools. You add those tools to the people using those tools and we kick ass.

Speaker C [00:43:38]:
So if success is sort of grounded in more people saying yes to Cleveland with more, you know, a forward looking orientation, what, what are you most excited about? What, what do you see, you know, over the horizon that, you know, most of us who don't get to think as much about the perception and brand of Cleveland as you do, you know, kind of see coming down the pike.

David Gilbert [00:44:02]:
You know, I think, Jeffrey, I. What I see as an absolute, truly an absolute game changing opportunity and generational opportunity is the development of the riverfront, but even more so the lakefront. We are here as a city, as most legacy great cities because of proximity to water. Water were the freeways back in the 1800s. 17, 1800s. And we're here because the confluence of Lake Erie and Cuyahoga River. But what we did back then, water was industrial. You know, water wasn't for recreation.

David Gilbert [00:44:47]:
And it was what made the mills go, it was what brought the ships in. And we did an exceptionally good job of pushing our water away from us. And if you look at the lake, we built a freeway, we built a railroad, we built an airport, you know, 450 acres at downtown. And we are finally, finally, finally making enormous progress toward reorienting ourselves to the water. And we always talk about an organization going from a city on the lake to a lakefront city, and that is very different. And it is. People are drawn to water, people are drawn to mountains, people are drawn to water. And we have this interesting unique advantage that if we do it right, will, will, I truly believe over the next generation and to Cleveland will be back to being a high growth market.

David Gilbert [00:45:42]:
It will people, people go now where they want to live. Not, not first because there's a job opening and they're going to go to get that job. Certainly that's, that is, that's important. But you know, people used to live, you know, three generations ago where they would walk to their job and even a generation ago, people would move to where the job was. Now so many people move where they want to be and they put their job in their backpack to go with them and we have this crazy unique opportunity. I guess one of the advantages of pushing away 6, 700 acres of lakefront property over 2 miles of, of shoreline is that if we are able to get Burke close, we are already working on some great development north of, you know, in the center, north of downtown. We will completely reinvent this city and its orientation. And, you know, not to mention with climate change and others where being in proximity to the largest body of, you know, collection of bodies of fresh water in the world is going to be that critically important.

David Gilbert [00:47:00]:
It just, it will remake Cleveland. And, and you cannot recreate what we have as a natural asset. What we do with it is a different story. But in my 30 years now, or more than 30 years of working in the civic space in Cleveland and working to make this city better. We have never come close to having this kind of real momentum, to actually making it happen. And if we are able to realize it the way I believe we will, the next generation or two will make this a very, very different place in every great way.

Speaker C [00:47:36]:
That's pretty exciting.

David Gilbert [00:47:38]:
Yeah, it is, because you can't recreate it anywhere else. And we are extraordinarily fortunate to have it. And I believe we will have one of the greatest lakefronts on the Great Lakes, and it will be an absolute magnet for people.

Speaker C [00:47:57]:
What are you most proud of in the work that you've done?

David Gilbert [00:48:00]:
I think what I will say, I don't know if I can pick one thing. What I have realized over time, the work is never done. What's the next big event? What's the next big development? What's the next thing? And I think in Cleveland, we have always been a little too focused on the next big edifice. The next stadium's gonna get it done for us. The next office towers. Not great things, but those don't change your fortunes, I think. I think just being part of seeing the attitude of Clevelanders change about their city, to me is, is maybe could be the most the thing I'm, I'm maybe most proud of. And again, by no means does it have to do with me.

David Gilbert [00:48:45]:
I've certainly been a part. But I, I, I think that is, that is at the core of every future good thing that's going to happen to Cleveland. That's going to be at the core of making it happen. At the end of the day, every great city is about people. Every great city is about people. It's not about buildings. It's not about things those are important. At the end of the day, the essence of any great place is its people.

Speaker C [00:49:12]:
Well, I'm very excited to ask you our closing question because I, I feel like you'll, it's, it's baked into the work you do to have a good answer to it, but it's, it's for hidden gems in Cleveland.

David Gilbert [00:49:22]:
Hidden gems. To me, maybe not so hidden. I mean, people love it. I just happen to love Edgewater Park. I'm an outdoors person, and I just feel like that place is so beautiful, lively. What the Metro Parks have done to elevate it, you look at the development around it, due to having a great place like that. I, I love, I love eating at places that I want to go to when I'm on vacation, which are like, you know, I'm not, I'M more like a place that is, you know, just good down home food. So I would say having a great breakfast at Lucky's in Tremont, sitting outside on their deck on a great summer morning.

David Gilbert [00:50:03]:
Someone just recently turned me on to Sense Pizza, an amazing little place on Lorraine. To me those are the types of spots you walk in. Like, damn, this is Cleveland. This, this is Cleveland. And, and I'll just say those. I just, I love, I love so much about, you know, about this town. And it's not necessarily the big touristy places. It, it's, you know.

David Gilbert [00:50:27]:
So I'd say those are, those are, you know, those are some of the, the great hidden gems. And I, I guess lastly I, I guess I would add the ledges down in Cuyahoga Valley park. Just a real cool place to hike, you know, hard place. It's only half hour from Cleveland and normally, you know, you don't get a national park with some real beauty like that so close to a major city.

Speaker C [00:50:51]:
Those are, those are all great hidden gems. Well, awesome, David, I just want to thank you for taking the time for the work that you do for the city and appreciate your reflections on the journey so far.

David Gilbert [00:51:04]:
Well, thanks, thanks for having me and I feel like for all the great people you've had on, I appreciate being in such good company.

Jeffrey Stern [00:51:10]:
Thank you.

David Gilbert [00:51:11]:
Just probably just best you go on Destination Cleveland or Sports Commission's websites. All my contact info is there and I'm one that responds quickly. Perfect. Awesome.

Jeffrey Stern [00:51:25]:
That's all for this week. Thank you for listening. We'd love to hear your thoughts on today's show, so if you have any feedback, please send over an email to jeffreyoftheland FM or find us on Twitter oddleftheland or sternhefe. J E F E if you or someone you know would make a good guest for our show, please reach out as well and let us know. And if you enjoy the podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on itunes or on your preferred podcast player. Your support goes a long way to help us spread the word and continue to bring the Cleveland founders and builders we love having on the show. We'll be back here next week at the same time to map more of the land. The Lay of the Land podcast was developed in collaboration with the UpCompany LLC at the time of this recording.

Jeffrey Stern [00:52:09]:
Unless otherwise indicated, we do not own equity or other financial interests in the company which appear on this show. All opinions expressed by podcast participants are solely their own and do not reflect the opinions of any entity which employs us this podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as as a basis for investment decisions. Thank you for listening, and we'll talk to you next week.