#251 Aidan Meany (Found Surface) — Building the Future of American Knitwear Manufacturing

Aidan Meany [00:00:00]:
Cleveland. Cleveland was a gigantic garment manufacturing hub in the 1920s, and so there is something special here where we're only a couple generations removed from folks that remember that. So it really feels like we're rewriting history in real time. This is not going to be a thing that we say was here and is gone forever. And what does the future hold for making product again and doing it and iterating and improving it? It's nice to have something to feel really excited about. I mean, I think that there's no better way to feel excited about the future than to go build it yourself. That's the way to go.

Jeffrey Stern [00:00:41]:
Welcome to the Lay of the Land podcast where we are exploring what people are building in Cleveland and throughout Northeast Ohio. I am your host Jeffrey Stern and today I had the real pleasure of speaking with Aidan Meaney, Founder and CEO of Found Surface. Aidan is building a programmable knitwear factory in Cleveland that is reimagining what American Apparel manufacturing can look like. What began for him with learning to sew from his grandmother and making clothing as a teenager has evolved into a much larger ambition, rebuilding the whole infrastructure to make apparel at scale here in the United States. Today, Found Surface develops its own yarn relationships from American farms and spinning partners, uses digital flatbed knitting and rapid assembly

Jeffrey Stern [00:01:24]:
to make product close to home, and

Jeffrey Stern [00:01:26]:
is building towards a future where brands can design, iterate and produce without the waste, delay and opacity of the traditional offshore model. In our conversation, Aidan and I explored the throughline from his early fascination with clothing and making to researching the fragmented state of American manufacturing during college, to building Found Surface in Cleveland. Today we talk about why he believes this city is uniquely suited for the work. The deeper thesis behind vertical integration and domestic production how digital knitting changes the economics of speed, customization and minimum order size and why overproduction, not just outsourcing, sits at the heart of so much of the apparel industry's dysfunction. We also discuss some of the specific local partnerships that foundsurface has developed with the Cleveland Cavaliers and and the Cleveland Museum of Art, the company's broader sustainability philosophy around natural fibers and proximity, the challenge of building an organization where young people can find meaningful work, and Aidan's belief that Ohio has a real opportunity to lead the next chapter of American industrial renewal. Aiden is a genuine inspiration, one of the most ambitious entrepreneurs I've met in my time here in Cleveland, and I hope you enjoy our conversation. Lay of the Land is brought to you and is proudly sponsored by Serity Partners as a wealth management firm. Serity Partners shares lay of the Land's same dedication to serving local business owners.

Jeffrey Stern [00:02:49]:
And the Serity Partners Cleveland team understands the challenges that entrepreneurs and founders face here in Cleveland, Northeast Ohio and beyond. Wealth comes with complexity and increased demands on time and resources. It is easy to become overwhelmed. Serity Partners clients benefit from a unified team of local specialists who coordinate across both business and personal needs. With Serity Partners commitment to transparency in putting clients needs first, complexity can become clarity. To learn more, please visit seritypartners.com or call 216-464-6266. Today, Serity Partners proud to be recognized as one of the top financial advisory

Jeffrey Stern [00:03:32]:
firms in the country.

Jeffrey Stern [00:03:34]:
You feel you're at an inflection point,

Jeffrey Stern [00:03:36]:
and I think that's actually kind of a fun place to start because it's

Jeffrey Stern [00:03:41]:
not the beginning of your story, it's not yet concluded.

Jeffrey Stern [00:03:44]:
But I feel inflection points are the space between where your conviction and vision has begun to take some shape of reality, which is in your backdrop there, as we can see behind you. And you have this awesome manufacturing factory coming online in the flats of downtown Cleveland. Machines Running Team is growing some deeper bets around vertical integration and domestic manufacturing. And it's all, you know, beginning to compound. So to this inflection point, what is it that you see the trajectory fundamentally being altered here? And from that inflection point, what do you kind of see behind you and what do you see ahead of you?

Aidan Meany [00:04:22]:
Yeah, great. Great start. I'd say understanding the context of where we are now requires, I think, a little bit of understanding about where I first got put on to harem making and where I think the process could become viable. And really what sort of lit the spark in me to do this at all, which overall goes way back to my grandmother teaching me how to sew. But I won't go through that whole

Jeffrey Stern [00:04:49]:
no, but we absolutely can.

Aidan Meany [00:04:51]:
I won't necessarily start from when I was 12 years old, but she taught me how to sew, and that got me really interested in just clothing and clothing design and apparel making. So I was making. I've been making clothes since I was in middle school. I'm a Cleveland guy. I went to St. Ignatius, did probably definitely the first, maybe the only one to do Runway shows at St. Ignatius, which was pretty absurd when I brought that to him. But this led a natural, maybe quarter life crisis when I was in college that really loved being around where a product was made.

Aidan Meany [00:05:25]:
And I hadn't really defined a post grad plan from the industrial design program I was in and so I started researching what interesting opportunities could be out there for me to be around where product was made. And you know, I was really, really disappointed in that. And so kind of one of those, like I actually just kind of wanted to build the job that I wanted. And it wasn't necessarily entrepreneur first or I want to be my own boss first or those sorts of things. It was really just like I love making stuff and I don't see anywhere for me to have this hands on postgrad opportunity. And in hindsight I've been very entrepreneurial my whole life. But yeah, it was more about making things, being my own boss or anything like that. It is great.

Jeffrey Stern [00:06:14]:
I'd say that what was disappointing about what you learned about the status quo, if you will.

Aidan Meany [00:06:23]:
Yeah, I mean lot of. So I printed off government databases of mills and farms and cut and sew facilities. And that was kind of my starting point while I was in college. I was a student at Syracuse University during COVID and that's when I started doing all of this research. So I'm freshman, you know, end of freshman year, part of sophomore year, zoom school, you know, again, hands on ID program. So I was doing metalworking and woodworking and, and plain of just like design theory and all this stuff that then was like, well just imagine you're doing it and don't actually come in and do it anymore. And so then I had a lot of free time to start thinking about what was, you know, what's out there for me, you know, after this. And like I said, government database search brought to light a lot of great potential.

Aidan Meany [00:07:11]:
But it was a lot of folks that are legacy, 20, 30, 40, 50 plus year old businesses that are really hanging on like they're not thriving, they're not running around saying this is so exciting in the future of anything. Like this is like we're just trying to keep it alive at all. And so that's what was disappointing was that there was no excitement there. There was a lot of we're just happy to still be alive. And, and there was really fragmented, right? There were very. There was no example of a completely vertically integrated, you know, cutting edge facility that was going to pave the way for any sort of a future in the states to be a manufacturing powerhouse. And so that was the opportunity that really I saw a huge gap for. Then you dive into all the reasons why, why that's the way it is.

Aidan Meany [00:08:01]:
And this inflection point is really the definition of how we go solve that gap. Not just, you know, generally or in terms of, you know, we're going to. It's not vague. It's very specific as to what kinds of equipment, staffing, electrical consumption, inputs and materials, total supply chain strength. All these things that we feel like we've really got nailed down to a point to scale it right. Right here in the flats in this new facility. So, yeah, it's been a lot of. A lot of research and a lot of R and D, a lot of trial and error, but, you know, we've been doing this.

Aidan Meany [00:08:36]:
I think that's the main. The main thing we feel really great about is that we feel like we've spent the right amount of time doing it, at times banging our heads against the wall, you know, at times having unexpected wins. And now we're really scaling something that feels predictable and reliable and really, really creates a lot of value for the. For the industry here in the states of brands that buy.

Jeffrey Stern [00:09:02]:
If you trace the through line from that earlier in life fascination that maybe was instilled through your. Your grandmother, you know, with clothing and textiles and fashion, to actually learning the craft itself, to understanding then the system behind the craft, to then deciding the system itself, you know, kind of needs rebuilding. Each, like, evolution of that is sort of a higher level of ambition. So I know maybe you didn't have the language to describe what you were doing in the terms of entrepreneurship, but maybe just where those two, you know, interests kind of came together and just kind of take us perhaps through the

Jeffrey Stern [00:09:46]:
origins of Found Surface.

Aidan Meany [00:09:48]:
Yeah, so I'll start with, I think, a funny fact, which is that the entity Found Surface, the entity is the same LLC that I started when I was 16 selling clothes to my grandma's friends. I couldn't start. I couldn't form the LLC because I was too young at the time to do so. So my dad had to do it for me. But it's the same entity, so it definitely there's. There is 100% a through line that couldn't be any more personal to me when it comes to. I think that, you know, making things is so important to me that the driving force behind getting to these different tiers of solving the problem or creating value has shown up because I just care so much about my ability to make things. So it's almost like the sales side of it is.

Aidan Meany [00:10:46]:
Has been a survival tactic to just have the ability to make stuff. It's kind of like the through line, especially when I was younger, right? Like, I wanted to buy more material to make the clothes that I wanted to show. Show off at my Runway. Show in school. And so I would have to sell stuff to get more, you know what I mean? It was just a survival tool to get the ideas out when I was younger. And in a lot of ways it feels very similar. And we've done all kinds of stuff in terms of adapting and changing the strategy not just to survive, but to really learn about some pretty deep corners of the industry and of the market. So we went through seasons of doing tons of research and development work where we were building prototypes and samples at a rate and scale that we just like, could not do long term, especially with the team that we had.

Aidan Meany [00:11:39]:
It gave us crazy one, it gave us cash in the bank, which is huge. But it also like gave us tons of experience that told us very clearly once we took a second back and kind of changed that pace, that these are the types of products that are gonna scale first. You know, these are the kinds of things that just gives you, you know, we're going up against manufacturers that have decades of not just fit and patterning experience, but experience in every category of the game that we don't have. You know, and so really expediting various strategies along the way of saying, we're gonna do a lot of dev now. Okay, we're not gonna, you know, we're gonna pump the brakes there. We're going to focus a lot on supply chain and materials. We might even sell materials to brands like whatever that might be, to learn all the different parts of this game. To then sit back at this inflection point and say, we're going to do digital flatbed knitting and rapid assembly.

Aidan Meany [00:12:38]:
We're going to start with four or five products, which I'm happy to get into. Yeah, like kind of the strategy now, all exploring all these things, but really having a business behind each of the strategies or having, you know, reason for it was huge because we learned about a lot of these, the reasons why the industry in the states has been so fragmented and not just vertically integrated and how to pull all these pieces together.

Jeffrey Stern [00:13:03]:
Knowing what you do and what you have done has changed over time as the business itself has evolved, as you're solving different forms of problems in this industry. And I imagine your answer to this would have been different at different points in time. But like, how do you articulate what Found Surface is?

Aidan Meany [00:13:22]:
Yeah, we are the fastest growing manufacturer of knitwear apparel in the United States. We start at the yarn level with farmers and materials companies and we are yarn in, product out for anyone. So you don't even need to know anything about the technicalities of making clothes or what goes into it. We ship yarn in this building and product leaves this building. We do it with equipment that is at cutting edge, top of the game stuff that folks likely and in often cases do have overseas, and the ways in which we're putting them together and comboing them with rapid assembly where we need folks to do that and automate at every corner that we can. We end up becoming a globally competitive knitwear manufacturing factory here in the States and solve. Give us the opportunity to solve lots of adjacent issues that brands face by the nature of sourcing their product globally when we can do it right at home.

Jeffrey Stern [00:14:27]:
So definitely want to explore some of the specifics of what that looks like, the kinds of problems you're solving. I thought it would be interesting to kind of ground some of that in this Made in America, you know, sentimentality. There's sort of today a nostalgic, romantic, you know, feeling about it, a resurgence of interest in what that even means. But I love that what you're doing is just very practical. It's about like, okay, how is, how do you do that in a way that is sustainable in many different meanings of that word is actually viable, that actually works and maybe just help paint the picture of how you think about made in America and the problems and the opportunity.

Aidan Meany [00:15:20]:
Yeah, totally. So there is a gigantic problem that brands in the United States are facing, which is overproduction and unsold product. And so how we've gotten here is brands have been contracting factories for decades overseas and putting pressure on their margin, right? They want cheaper product. The factories have sacrificed over and over again through decades of saying, yes, okay, we'll make it cheaper, we'll make it cheaper, we'll make it cheaper. And what they've. The factories have gotten in return is a really high moq. So they said, we'll make it cheaper and cheaper and cheaper if you order more and more and more. And so that is just has boiled over, in my opinion, into the moment we're in, which is now you're importing tens of thousands of units per style into, into a warehouse, which is also a major expense.

Aidan Meany [00:16:31]:
Right. You need to warehouse all this product once it lands, but you're also now, you know, freighting containers in and you've got all these issues going on. So basically, brands are facing, American brands are facing this gigantic series of expenses that has been, that have been growing and compounding over time. And it's not feasible anymore. Right. It's just like it's not working for anybody, roughly. You know, 30% of product isn't, you know, never sees the light of day. That's, that's.

Aidan Meany [00:17:02]:
I was reading McKinsey report that says that 30% globally is $210 billion. And so that's a, you know, that's gigantic or sorry to be even clear, right? Half a half a trillion dollars worth of product is lost every year by brands as the sum 200 billion is sitting in a, in limbo always.

Jeffrey Stern [00:17:32]:
It's hard to even imagine what that, what that, right?

Aidan Meany [00:17:36]:
So there's, so there's $200 billion worth of inventory for brands across the globe that is just sitting in this gray limbo that will likely never see the light of day. And there's half a trillion dollars worth of product that just is gone every year from them a loss. And that's a sum of discounting product and throwing it away. And there's brands that are scared about their perceived value and they burn it and all kinds of stuff. But this is the issue that the, that, that all brands are facing whether you're big or small, right? Even if you're small boutique shop or you're looking for merchandise for your company, you're, you're going on and you're getting, you know, kind of screwed by. I gotta get too many of these things and the per unit is so high, if I only get a dozen and you know, all this stuff, you're getting screwed. So we have been very calculated in figuring out the markets that we think we can penetrate f fastest based on the equipment we've identified that produces the most scalable, most price competitive product globally. And that's where we're at today as we're unleashing this through contracts.

Aidan Meany [00:18:52]:
We're making product now, we're turning this factory online now. And so the reality of that is that yes, a lot of the system that we've got going on here is put on like the pressure's put on equipment. And we're doing it in ways that don't look like traditional garment factories that you'd think of because we're combining materials, we're combining not, you know, training and knowledge sets and having all these utility players come in and do all kinds of different roles across the production chain. But it's pretty fascinating how automated we know we can get and how necessary the human roles are in that and the people are to that system. So we're just right in a great sweet spot with the pace of technology, the pace of software development, the pace of AI and everything. We're able to Implement that somewhere where we know it really doesn't have a direct effect on how important people are in this equation. So yeah, it's pretty awesome. I can go all day.

Jeffrey Stern [00:19:49]:
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Jeffrey Stern [00:20:53]:
think when a lot of people just at the highest level will think through why we outsource so much of what we have from a manufacturing standpoint comes down to the labor arbitrage, the difference in what it costs for people to do the manufacturing in different places all over the world. And I think you did a great job there painting how broken parts of the current model are. When you think about the path forward and what the opportunity is for you and what you're building in the context of all this automation and where that moves the needle. But just maybe speak a bit to, you know, this, this smart factory concept, like what are you actually building behind you? What is it? What does it look like, how does it work? How is it different from how we've done it historically? And what does it unlock?

Aidan Meany [00:21:43]:
Yeah, yeah, super, super exciting. So we, we use digital flatbed knitting equipment. So these are programmable knitting machines that are the size of a small car. Were even, you know, there's, there's some of them, um, and we are combining them with rapid by hand assembly for certain product lines. So the key verbiage to know, to really understand what we do is we've got what's called fully fashioned product. Fully fashioned means that you're knitting down the components that get assembled for a, for a piece of clothing. So for a sweater you'd be knitting your sleeves to shape and then your front and your back and whatnot. And that Gets assembled by our sewing team.

Aidan Meany [00:22:35]:
Then there's product that we call whole garment knitting, which is seamless knitting. So you've got your beanies and even wearable apparel, too, that doesn't require any sewing or assembly. Afterwards, it comes off the machine ready to go. There are small, rapid steps to offload from machine and make sure that, you know, product is finished properly. But it's, for the most part, fully automated. So we are packing this building out with flatbed knitting machines and clusters for rapid assembly. There's adjacent steps, like, for some products, depending. We wash them in house, so we have washing equipment.

Aidan Meany [00:23:12]:
There's also, you know, and pick and pack and all kinds of stuff going on too. But that is the flow is that we. We have spent years developing our own relationships with farms and spinning mills in Texas and North Carolina. And so we are making our own yarn with these partners. We're making it out of USA grown cotton and shipping that in to Cleveland. We'll bring it in here loaded on machine, knit product down, assemble it or not, box it, ship it. The product lines that we do that with, like I said, have been designed for specific markets at this time so that we can make the largest splash possible in the shortest amount of time. And our overreaching goal is to be making around 300,000 units of product that's a blend across different kinds of categories of apparel by 2028, and to achieve 1% of all wholesale knitwear bought in the United States by Brands by 2040.

Jeffrey Stern [00:24:20]:
Right.

Jeffrey Stern [00:24:20]:
So certainly not lacking in ambition.

Aidan Meany [00:24:22]:
Yeah. And to give you a sense of scale, too, right? Promo. So, like, promotional, like, merchandise is our. We're like, gung ho on this right now because there's. There's a huge opportunity for us. And just the promo. Branded apparel market is $5 billion annually right now. We're also huge in pro sports, and we're huge in museum merch.

Aidan Meany [00:24:46]:
So it's like all these markets together, you're pushing $8 billion a year in terms of what we're after. And so we want to capture a percent of even more than that. But those are our main priorities right now, to penetrate.

Jeffrey Stern [00:25:01]:
Why has no one tried to do something like this before? Or if they have, where is it kind of broken down? You know, I love. I mean, straight to the farmers to get the yarn, like, the whole way. The whole. The whole way.

Aidan Meany [00:25:15]:
Yeah, there are. There are some. Some okay examples, and there are lots of. Lots of examples of failed efforts that I think there's a lot to learn from. And like I said, the equipment we're using is, is not like we, we are bringing it to the, to the US in a blueprint that works. And we're one of the first that's actually been able to do that. The equipment is available. There's factories in China that has this.

Aidan Meany [00:25:43]:
And again, you can get to this whole, I mean, I'll go on this rant all day long, which is that we need to be getting as many flatbed knitting machines in the States as humanly possible to be able to compete globally. They're doing it already. It's not a secret. We need to get the equipment and do it. So where things go wrong, material side, so lack of research, lack of stable supply. But the over, you know, the material is one thing. Programmers, right. This is another thing.

Aidan Meany [00:26:17]:
This is hard to find folks that understand how to work within the programs necessary to really like tell the equipment what to do. It's a very specialized technical role and we are incredibly. I mean, this is part of the reason why I started, started the business in Cleveland is that we've got Kent State down the road and they have digital flatbed knitting machines that they're training students on how to program. This is, they're, they're a leader. They're one of, I'd say well under a dozen. I mean there's less than a dozen schools in the entire country that have dedicated programs to this. And at many of them it's a niche extracurricular. There's no majors, there's, you know, there's nothing really dedicated towards this industry because where are they going to go get a job? They're not going to move to China and work in a factory.

Aidan Meany [00:27:10]:
Like they're not, they're not doing that. So a big part of it is like they don't have any opportunities. And we're one of the only ones who were like telling Kent State, like, send us every single person that wants a career and programming because we can't get enough. So, so one thing is, yeah, not understanding that there have been folks that have put lots of effort and capital into building facilities with flatbed netting machines, some of which that we've actually scooped up the aftermarket equipment from, who just completely did not understand that that was a prerequisite to doing this successfully and just missed the programmer mark entirely. So we're, we've got, you know, we, we had three. I mean in our early days when we had eight or ten or so employees, almost half of them were programmers, which is like there are factories that don't even Have a single programmer overseas, they're just contracting. So we've made it a priority there. Materials, programmers, that's where things go wrong.

Aidan Meany [00:28:10]:
They've been a cornerstone of our strategy. And then overall, just focus. I mean, it's like when you can make so many different things, it is so easy to shoot yourself in the foot constantly by going after this, going after that. Maybe we should make this. Maybe we should just go after this contract and build around it and not diversify. Right. Like, there's all these ways that folks can get really excited and you should be. But, like, it can destroy your focus.

Aidan Meany [00:28:40]:
Like, we've gone through our own shiny evolution here, right? Exactly. Like, these machines are incredible. They can do so many things. But when you're small and you're just starting out, your production equipment is your development equipment, right? Like, there was a while where we didn't have designated production equipment and designated, you know, development machines. And so every second counts on those. And being able to run the right models and do the right math on what your per minute cost is on that, on those equipment, but also what the. What the detriment is if you're not running it, what your downtime really costs. And knowing, like, we gotta figure something out here and really make some product for people.

Aidan Meany [00:29:20]:
And, you know, that's what's been the. I think what's pushed us into realizing, like, we need to focus on less product. It's very easy to want to out the gate, make lots, dozens of different kinds of products and say, look, I got something for everybody, yada, yada. That's not what, in our opinion, actually moves the needle in terms of taking a bigger bite out of the pie chart of product being made. We want to, like I said, make hundreds of thousands of units over the next couple years. And to do that, you need to be focused on less products, more units of less kinds of products. And so everybody needs a beanie. We make the best beanie in the world.

Aidan Meany [00:30:04]:
Why not get out there and sell as many beanies as you can, right?

Jeffrey Stern [00:30:09]:
Yeah. Discipline through focus. So lots of threads to pull on here. No pun intended. I think I'll start with when you think about the overproduction and kind of the sustainability problem underlying the whole industry. I can think of at least two renditions of sustainability. One is related to just overproduction. One is related to the materials themselves.

Jeffrey Stern [00:30:40]:
But just how you are thinking about sustainability, what that means to you, and how is it kind of instilled within the business.

Aidan Meany [00:30:49]:
Yeah, that's been the immovable object for us. And I think that when it comes to focus, that's been a huge, a huge part of it. We, it's, it, your, your options materialize faster when you pick a couple things that aren't going away. You pick a couple levers that don't move. And the fact that we don't import yarn and we're making yarn with USA farmers in Texas that has been a pillar of the selected kind of narrowed down product line that we're focusing on. So what that looks like is we make all of our semi custom private label product out of USA grown cotton. And so we've developed that for equipment for the product lines to be the right twist ratios and you know, just like down to the nitty gritty yarn spinning specs that our supply chain, supply chain team manages. There's many reasons for this.

Aidan Meany [00:31:43]:
One, we want to support the entire spectrum of the supply chain here in the states. We want, you know, we're only, we are only as capable as our material providers. If we don't have material, we can't make product. This should be a team effort. This should be a community. We should be supporting multiple industries because they're all very critical to what we do. And you know, in the pursuit of vertical integration, you just don't want to be, you know, our whole, our whole strategy is to bring things home, bring things closer together. So why would we do all this work and then go ship in yarn from thousands of miles away? It just doesn't really make sense.

Aidan Meany [00:32:24]:
There's like kind of, you know, there's a natural dissonance to that. If we were to do it and we won't next, I think that there are plenty of products that if we can get the manufacturing down and efficient enough that we can no longer sacrifice plastic as the input to meet the cost requirement or to meet the price that the consumer will pay. So there are lots of things that are made out of acrylic or polyester, lots of petroleum based materials in products we wear every day that are, you'll, you'll see more and more about this as time goes on, but we might be, I think sometimes I'm worried that we might be too early to the game on this and that people don't quite, it's not quite mainstream yet, but it definitely will be that this stuff is destroying every system in our body the more that we wear it. Your skin is your biggest organ and so when you cover it in plastic, it will do things to you. It will have effects on, you know, different systems in your body. And so there's a lot there that I am not a doctor or a scientist, so I'm not gonna get into those weeds. But I think that it's. It's very clear that natural fibers are significantly healthier for you and for the.

Aidan Meany [00:33:37]:
For the planet. I think then you get to the concept of total life cycle, not just while you're wearing it, but when you're done with it. And what it's gonna. Where it's gonna go, what it's gonna do. You want something that lasts a really long time. You don't wanna make clothes that disintegrate and are crummy, but you wanna make stuff that will last a really long time and age gracefully, but not last forever. There's a difference between, you know, a couple hundred years or 100 years. And, like, question mark.

Aidan Meany [00:34:09]:
Yep. I think that that's. That's a big. That's a big mission driver for us is that for things like beanies, right? We make a. We. We make an organic cotton beanie that has zero fabric waste to it. It knits down seamlessly. And the very, very small amount of yarn waste that we generate in this factory for that product gets composted through Rust Belt Riders here in Cleveland.

Aidan Meany [00:34:32]:
And so, I mean, I haven't seen a single apparel factory that is composting waste or can even compost waste. But we can do so because we have full traceability down to the farm. And we know that it's USDA certified organic for that product line. So it can go right into our food waste and our food scraps and break down accordingly. We're even setting up. We're going to work on setting up, sending them soil, sending our farm soil from cotton scraps so that we've actually done the full. Done.

Jeffrey Stern [00:35:05]:
Oh, that's awesome.

Aidan Meany [00:35:07]:
But, you know, it's a. It's a major play in terms of our health and the wearer's health, right? We want to be putting product that we know is sustainable. Right? Sustainable, but literally, like, forever viable for the health and prosperity of people that are wearing it. So we know that there's a. There's a date at which at some point we're gonna have to say, we gotta stop making stuff out of plastic. Like, truly. Because it's. It's.

Aidan Meany [00:35:33]:
Whether it's disrupting our hormones or it's, you know, decreasing fertility or it's making people sick, right? Like all these things. That's what plastic in our clothing does. And there's stuff. There's stuff that just doesn't need to be. There's stuff that. Currently, there's no better alternative. Right. There's stuff where it's like, this has gotta be made out of polyester or nylon or something.

Jeffrey Stern [00:35:56]:
Right.

Aidan Meany [00:35:56]:
Like workwear, utility stuff, fireproof, all those things. Like, there's no way around that yet. But it's not necessarily what you need to be wearing all day, every day, or, like, on your head in the winter. Right. So for those things, we see this as a great substitute, especially, like the merchandise you get for your favorite sports team that shouldn't be destroying your hormones. Right. And it certainly shouldn't be made thousands of miles away.

Jeffrey Stern [00:36:19]:
Well, maybe to paint a picture of how this all looks in practice. That's a great example. Just how did the partnership with the Cavaliers come about? What does that kind of teach you if you take us through from soup to nuts or, I guess, yarn to clothing, how that comes together?

Aidan Meany [00:36:40]:
Yeah, I mean, our work with the Cavs and I also want to throw out there just because it's another local powerhouse, our work with the Cleveland Museum of Art. They were two clients and partners of ours that came on roughly the same time because they were collaborating on their City Edition jersey together at the time for the. For the Cavs. And I had been speaking at a local gathering called EcoSpeaks. Diane Bickett is the founder. She's awesome. She was hosting. She does maybe once a quarter, she does a live panel discussion from.

Aidan Meany [00:37:19]:
From Leaders in the sustainability space. And this one was at Great Lakes Tasting Room. And at the time, more recent, vice President of sustainability for the Cavs, Danielle Doza was there. And we. That's where we met, and we started having conversations about, okay, well, how can we, you know, work together during this City Edition release and fulfill many of the environmental sustainability goals of the Cavaliers through working on some products together? And so that was obviously, at the time, you know, huge for us. Cause we were still in our. In our first facility and still really, like, testing lots of different methods of making apparel. Because we've made all kinds of stuff, from, you know, racing uniforms to canvas and denim jackets to medical devices to.

Aidan Meany [00:38:09]:
I mean, we've made lots of things in our founding. And the difference is, yeah, what are we scaling? Right. And that's kind of where we're like, well, what is this factory? And what's the point of it? What are we scaling here? What's made here? And then found. Surface will be a company of many different kinds of factories, ultimately. So working with the Cavs brought that perfect pressure of, well, what's the most you can do, you know. Right. Which is, which is a very hard question to answer. And then execute and deliver better than you set the expectations for.

Aidan Meany [00:38:44]:
And it went incredibly, incredibly well. At the time, we were doing more traditional cut and sew method of T shirts and hoodies for them, working with them and the museum. The experience of it is one thing, right? We can deliver it ourselves in our own trucks. We don't need to put a label on it and FedEx it. I mean, this is like the old days, right? It's just like you get to do things in such a high tech, highly efficient 2020. At the time when we started working together, it was 2024, you know, but we did it again this year, right? It's 2026. We're doing it cutting edge tech, flatbed knitting. Boom.

Aidan Meany [00:39:21]:
The new wave. But we're also like driving it down the street and like dropping it. You know, it's just, it's just awesome, like to do, to do work like that and to have great partners like that. But it. Those two, those two folks in particular brought to light some really interesting market opportunities, like beyond them, right? Like, they were like, hey, we want to set a standard. Like the Cavs were like, we want to set a standard in professional sports as to how you can go create traceable product. I don't know how else you're going to do it without us, especially from the United States. But like, that's great for us, right? And so, yep, just showing that some of these things that people have talked about and have maybe indirectly talked about, but have, have committed to in their environmental sustainability goals, like how else are you gonna be net zero by 20 or whatever.

Aidan Meany [00:40:10]:
And like apparel is a very concrete way that we are able to make this happen for folks like the Cavs. I mean, it's, it's unheard of that a professional sports team can tell you the bail lot in the ground where the cotton was pulled from all the way back to a single unit in their run. And that's something that we can do. Like we make that, we make that possible. To say, I can tell you like where in the ground this sweater came from, which is just, you know, there's, there's, there's. You have to want that, you know, and you have to work with us to, to give us the, you know, space to do that. But that's something that is like not impossible for us to do. We do it all the time.

Aidan Meany [00:40:52]:
Yeah, they're just incredible local part to do it all in the Same state. It shows that Ohio is on some interesting wave and everyone's looking to really push the bar and do better and really promote regional production and support each other. I think it says a lot about just Cleveland business doing business in Ohio. So it's, it's, it's really special.

Jeffrey Stern [00:41:15]:
Well, let, let's, let's speak to the intentionality of place beyond proximity to, to Kent. Um, I mean, you've thought deeply about why Cleveland and would love to hear you expand on that.

Aidan Meany [00:41:29]:
Yeah, I wouldn't have, I mean, I guess when I was in college, I wouldn't have known that I'd be, I'd be so rooted here. But when you quickly, I mean, when you start looking at just where the talent is, where the folks that are getting trained on equipment for apparel manufacturing is, that's one piece of it, right? Like programming for the knitting machines. That's one piece. That's huge. I mean, they, Kent hosts a once every two years conference that is on knitting and they bring in global players. And I mean, they're like, they're huge in this space. Like, Kent is massive. But obviously beyond that Cleveland community of entrepreneurs and business owners and the, the amount of collaboration between institutions, whether that's, you know, in sports or in medical or in university, the private public partnership landscape is really interesting.

Aidan Meany [00:42:24]:
And so I think that folks want to do cool things and work together. And it's, it's, it's definitely like that kind of almost indescribable Cleveland, you know, just confidence and being proud to be here that I think is carrying a lot of things through, beyond just having hope for the Browns every season. I think that growing up, that's the clearest one. And you're like, oh, they still stick by the Browns. And you're like, why? And how do they still show up to all these games? But then beyond that, you're like, it's how we're in this beautiful facility, right? It's like we're startup manufacturer. We require folks that understand our vision and the potential for us to bring really incredible business to the city of Cleveland, to lend a hand on deals and support us in ways that require everybody to think more about the greater good of Cleveland versus the greater good of their own individual business or practice and see where Found Surface is going to bring a lot of value and ripple effects to the city, not just for, you know, folks at the city office, but also other businesses around us. So I just, I've just seen a lot of really interesting collaboration in my short couple years where People just want to help and they're like, kind of blown away that we are here. Like a little bit blown away that we're here.

Aidan Meany [00:43:46]:
But, like the facility we're in right now would be quarter of a billion dollars in New York City or so. You know what I mean? Like, there's just no way that you could even financially make any of these things viable from a real estate cost of living or talk. You get a whole conversation about red tape and just how hard it is to move quickly on certain things.

Jeffrey Stern [00:44:08]:
Yeah. One thread I wanted to pull on, you know, you spoke to the short couple of years. I don't normally, you know, we'll bring this up in conversations, but I do think it's pretty fascinating to. I don't think anyone would understand how young you are as part of this whole conversation and undertaking. And I don't think we have to speak to your age. But I am. Like, where does the gumption come from? Like, where you're executing at a. At a level of competency and ambition and scale that I don't think people would associate with someone of your age.

Aidan Meany [00:44:44]:
Where.

Jeffrey Stern [00:44:44]:
Where do you feel that that comes from?

Aidan Meany [00:44:46]:
Yeah, I. I think obviously multiple places, but yeah, like, no one in my family's in apparel industry. Like, no. Like, I'm like, definitely the first one in my family to do anything like this or to build anything like this. So I don't, I don't have any sort of like a direct connection to the industry or like have seen anything like this get built because I don't think anyone really has because the industry's been gone for so long. And I think that what really got me started is again, this, this feeling that we need to be able to make things here on a deeper level. I think that there is a serious impact when there aren't opportunities for young people like myself to work at a company that they feel valued within and that the work they're doing has a direct impact on quality of product, quality of life, future of manufacturing, the community at large. Right.

Aidan Meany [00:45:50]:
Like, there's like very. I think that I'm a part of a generation. I mean, I'm. I'm turning 25 next month, and I'm a part of a. I'm a part of a generation that has not stayed at jobs very long, not felt very connected to their employer, hasn't really had opportunity to find a calling. Like, there's a lot of. This is like a common theme amongst people my age. And so I do feel like a responsibility to create an example of A business that is rooted in something tangible, is rooted in creating opportunities that are of high quality, but also are part of a community and a group that they can feel really proud of and isn't like taking advantage of anybody or whether that be on the production side or the consumer side, it's just trying to do good work and clean up as much of a mess that we possibly can from this industry kind of left to us.

Jeffrey Stern [00:46:47]:
It's awesome. Love that sentiment.

Aidan Meany [00:46:51]:
I mean, if I can bottle it up into an answer, you know, but it's, it, yeah, it's, it's special. I mean, it's like you show up here and, and it's, you know, we're all very excited about the work we do. And we're a full time team of 17 now and we're building training programs with non profits here. We're giving people opportunities to do their life's work. And I think that that's something that has now I've been able to see that happen where I've created and we've collectively created environments where young people can go do their life's work. And I think that that's hard to find. You know, it's hard to find. Also hard to see how awesome it is to put somebody in a position of freedom and decision making power that maybe they wouldn't have for 20 years and just say go.

Jeffrey Stern [00:47:44]:
Yeah.

Aidan Meany [00:47:44]:
And it. And this is what you get. I mean, this is, this is what happens is when you just start cutting. I'm a big fan of a very, very shallow and wide org structure, you know, and, and I think that like this lets people just run on stuff and break things fast. And if they have an idea, try it. And it's, it's pretty awesome to just watch that model work. And it's just trusting, it's just trusting each other. That's really all it is.

Jeffrey Stern [00:48:09]:
Yeah. I think one of the real perennial themes of all of these conversations that I've had has been centered around, in some cases, life's work, which. The best definition that I've come across is this lifelong journey or endeavor to build something for others that is an expression of, of who you are. And I feel like one of the highest callings is to build an organization that helps other people find their life's work. It's just very cool. It's like the idea for good work is the reward for it is more work, but work that you like doing.

Aidan Meany [00:48:50]:
Right? Right. Element that I didn't mention here is that Cleveland was a gigantic garment manufacturing hub in the 1920s. And so there is something special here where we're only a couple generations removed from folks that remember that and would love to see that come back and thrive in a new way. So it really feels like we're sort of rewriting history in real time in a way, which is saying, like, this is not going to be a thing that we say was here and is gone forever. And oh, my gosh, what, you know, what. What does the future hold for making product again and doing it and iterating and improving it? And just like, I think that it's nice to have something to feel really excited about. I mean, I think that, like, there's no better way to feel excited about the future than to go build it yourself. There's.

Aidan Meany [00:49:45]:
That's. That's the way to go.

Jeffrey Stern [00:49:47]:
Beautifully said. What does success mean to you in the context of that, then? How do you think about what you, you know, you outlined in this evolution of building and creating clothing for your grandmother's friends to you know, maybe solving niche and specific company problems to. All right, percentage of global attire manufacturing. How do you think about the impact that you want to have? Looking back in retrospect, I do think

Aidan Meany [00:50:12]:
that's hard to answer, if I'm being honest. I think that that's hard to. To answer by nature of the, the priorities and sort of phases that I have to adopt throughout this, this journey. I have to care a lot about different things at different, you know, different moments. And right now I'm in the. I'm in the securing contracts and getting everyone excited about. You can know who's making your stuff now and convincing people and sharing the story, which is, which is awesome to do. But yeah, when I take myself out of.

Aidan Meany [00:50:45]:
Out of that, you know, I, I go back to. If I was back in college looking for opportunities, I would hope that future young people of the US would be able to go see examples of interesting things being done, boundaries being pushed, products being made. I think that, like, this is right off the, you know, tail of Artemis 2 and things like that, where I'm like, where are the things that are pushing us ahead? I think it's really exciting. I want to be a major contributor to that. So if I'm, I always say here, and we've got lots of people here that would love to do this, but let's make the spacesuits in Cleveland, you know, like, let's make, like, let's do things that are contributing to pushing the bar, pushing the boundary. We're in a. Rebuilding sort of a Mode right now, where we're like, this industry was here and it's gone, and now we have to do it even better than they're doing it overseas in order to be competitive. And we're going to do that.

Aidan Meany [00:51:49]:
But also, where do we go from there once we do that? And how do we use our equipment and our knowledge and our expertise to contribute to a significantly better future than we could have even imagined in a healthier future with no surprises. Like all the clothes you've been wearing for the last 40 years are directly, negatively, direct, you know, affecting your health. And yeah, I think that's, that's sort of my, my scramble of an answer there is just that I want to contribute to an exciting future. And if I can look back and say that, wow, I played a part in that, that's, that's enough for me.

Jeffrey Stern [00:52:23]:
That's a perfectly good answer to me. You've spoken to some of these throughout the course of the conversation, but I kind of appreciate the idea that you maybe never didn't realize originally that you are an entrepreneur. And it's, you know, just through the

Jeffrey Stern [00:52:37]:
following of your passion here that you've

Jeffrey Stern [00:52:39]:
realized you are what, what is what sticks out to you as the most

Jeffrey Stern [00:52:45]:
powerful kind of entrepreneurial lessons learned along the way.

Aidan Meany [00:52:51]:
Honestly, like, the balance between ego and confidence has been huge. I think early you want to say, I've got this, I've got this idea, I've got this company, I've got this vision. I've got these. These are all my things. You, you want to, you gotta figure out the right, like, dosage, if you will, of like, I'm confident in results or decisions that I know will stairstep into execution of a particular strategy, but that can get destroyed when you start hanging on to, well, I'm the one supposed to be making those decisions, even down to what I think is like, cool or not. Right? Like, I mean, that's, that's pretty arbitrary. But I think a lot of this, yeah, there's, there's things that you can say were terrible decision. There's, there's mistakes I've made that were directly because I thought something was cool.

Aidan Meany [00:53:44]:
You know, that's a, that's. I guess that's about as like, real as I can be, is that, you know, you want to make sure that you are surrounding yourself with people that are significantly more of an expert on a particular task than you and to not ever be in the way of telling them no because you think something else is just simply cooler or you want to Be the decision maker on it. We've gotten real good at just understanding what the truth is and having conversations around what the. You know, when you're doing something like what we're doing, it's already hard enough to make it happen. So you. It's like a. It's a necessary that we're only talking about truths and that we're constantly chipping away at things that could be, you know, build up of. Well, we're working around this problem.

Aidan Meany [00:54:28]:
We don't want to address it directly. Oh, yada yada. I just think that that's. That's pretty key. So I've. I've certainly understood a lesson in terms of making sure that I am actually. I remember who said something like this. Palmer Lucky said something like this where he was like, I'm, you know, want to be like.

Aidan Meany [00:54:50]:
I want to, like, eradicate myself basically from the operation. Like, I want to, like, make it work so well that I'm. I'm actually just always in the way of things. Right. Which I think is an interesting pursuit. And not that I want to go away from it. That's not the goal. But I think that if you want something to really thrive and grow and be bigger than yourself, then it should be able to do well without you.

Aidan Meany [00:55:13]:
It's kind of a weird, you know, thing to think about, but that would be the kind of the wave I'm on right now.

Jeffrey Stern [00:55:19]:
I mean, I think one of the true marks of leadership is what happens in your absence. Which is kind of the flip side of that coin.

Aidan Meany [00:55:28]:
Exactly. Lot goes back to trust. To trust and to be in the pursuit of. Of reality and not a. Not a future version of it or. But to really understand where you are in context, what matters now and to be able to. To get everyone aligned. Right.

Aidan Meany [00:55:45]:
I think that's a huge thing too, is it's so easy to be like, well, I've got it figured out, but that doesn't really.

Jeffrey Stern [00:55:50]:
Well, I'll bring us somewhat full circle here and begin again. We started with the idea of an inflection point and, you know, knowing that this is not the end of the

Jeffrey Stern [00:55:59]:
journey, it's not the beginning.

Jeffrey Stern [00:56:01]:
There's a lot we didn't talk about, I'm sure. Is there something that comes to mind that feels particularly important that you would want to talk about as just part of this current. Taking stock of where reality is for you and what you've built?

Aidan Meany [00:56:16]:
Yeah, I mean, I think that there's a great movement going on in Ohio and I would just encourage the Continued communication and gathering of decision makers and entrepreneurs. And honestly, the work that you do outside of the pod, or I guess connected to the pod, which is really awesome. But I think Ohio is leading an incredible effort. And I would just, you know, I. When I'm not in Ohio, I'm talking about Ohio, and when I'm in Ohio, I'm talking about Ohio. So I'm just super fired up.

Jeffrey Stern [00:56:48]:
All roads lead to Ohio.

Aidan Meany [00:56:49]:
Right. I'm just, like, fired up about it. And so, you know, I. Yeah, we're, we're over here doing our thing, building out the future of apparel manufacturing and for brands that haven't cared about how or where their product is made, I think it's long overdue that you start doing that, doing that research and understanding that there is an end to the way things have been going on. You know, there's an end coming and you should have a, you should have a plan for that. And we've been doing that for the last five years or so.

Jeffrey Stern [00:57:22]:
Love it. Well, I'll hit you then with our traditional closing question, which is for favorite hidden gems in Cleveland.

Aidan Meany [00:57:30]:
Nice. I have like a, I have like a combo answer.

Jeffrey Stern [00:57:36]:
Perfect.

Aidan Meany [00:57:37]:
So. Because I just recently, I just recently went there, but surprised at how many people generally don't know about Sense Pizza. So I have to throw Sense Pizza as my, as my answer because I'm like, I talk about it a lot. A lot of people don't know. And I'm shocked because lots of Il Rion fans, not, you know, Sense. Love them. I love, I love El Rion. They're, you know.

Aidan Meany [00:58:00]:
No, they're very different. They're not comparable. They're not trying to do something right. But. So that's why you should go check out Sounds Pizza if you don't know about it, because it's definitely a different, different vibe.

Jeffrey Stern [00:58:11]:
But I have to say, I'm like, literally going there for dinner.

Aidan Meany [00:58:14]:
Are you serious? This is not planned. It's not planned. Yeah. That's awesome. But I recently went to the Kaiju Pop up at Sense Pizza, and those guys are incredible. They've recently gone pretty nomadic. They had a location. They don't have a location.

Aidan Meany [00:58:36]:
They're popping up in different places. They're talking about having a location. So the only way to know what the hell's going on is to follow them on Instagram. But there's some incredible omakase chefs that are just. I mean, it's nuts. So they just did a pop up. They took over since the kitchen and did a whole thing and that was an incredible experience. So sense.

Aidan Meany [00:58:57]:
And if you can track down wherever Kaiju is going on, it's going to be worth your time for sure. Nomadic, hidden gem. Tough to find.

Jeffrey Stern [00:59:05]:
Real.

Aidan Meany [00:59:06]:
Hidden. Real. Yeah, yeah. Moving target.

Jeffrey Stern [00:59:09]:
Cool. Laden. This was awesome. I really appreciate you taking the time and reflecting a bit on the journey. I'm super excited about what you're building and look forward to following along on your journey as it continues to unfold.

Aidan Meany [00:59:23]:
Thank you. Yeah, you're always welcome. You know, I think as a. As a bow tie a bow on everything too. I'm going to throw one thing out there because I know we've sort of talked about all aspects of what we do, and I think that it's nice to kind of close with some visuals or some clear things. And, you know, at the end of the day, we make beanies, scarves, blankets, sweaters, and we develop many other things, but those are what we make. And so I want to throw. I want to just sort of end with that.

Aidan Meany [00:59:59]:
Like, I know we were talking about all kinds of stuff, but right now that's what we are scaling and we're very capable to do more than that if there's an opportunity there. But I think it's just nice to sort of tie a bow on that. But thank you for setting up such an awesome conversation. And like I said, you're always welcome to kind of keep checking in and watching. I used to be a big clash of clans guy in high school, so it's kind of like same sort of like you can come check out. You can come check out the base anytime. Love it. Thanks again.

Jeffrey Stern [01:00:30]:
If people had anything they wanted to follow up about, learn more, where would you point them?

Aidan Meany [01:00:36]:
Yeah, definitely evolving. Our website all the time with stuff. We do blogs on there, too. Foundsurface.com is our main, you know, main hub for that stuff. And then we run a pretty cool Instagram. You know, we've got a great team. So at Found Surface on that and otherwise. Yeah, you'll see us in more and more retail shops whether you know it or whether you know it or not.

Jeffrey Stern [01:01:04]:
One more question, actually. What. What does. What does found Surface mean? Where does that come from?

Aidan Meany [01:01:09]:
Great question. Yeah, it was a high school art project I had at Ignatius. Some people might be familiar with the term found objects or found object, which is really just like, you know, something you found in the world. Like you didn't buy it, you didn't really source it even. You just kind of came upon it and you found it. And so this project was Called Found Surface. It was a sculpture project to make a sculpture out of, you know, that told a story, but out of things that you didn't buy. You just like found around you or had, you know, in nature at your house or whatever it might be.

Aidan Meany [01:01:48]:
And I remember getting that. I got that project when I was a junior and I was like, this term is so cool. But I don't know, I just resonated with it and I. And I did. I wrote it on a piece of paper, I put it in my wallet. I ended up losing that wallet and losing the piece of paper, but I didn't forget the term. And when I was doing this research in college, I. And I was like, maybe this is a business and maybe I'm going to start doing this thing.

Aidan Meany [01:02:10]:
I immediately was like, well, we're using what's around us. And that's what. That's the ultimate, you know, project here for Found Surface. Yeah, it's pretty cool that it, that it is still connected to my time around this, around when I started this actual app, this same llc, which is so mind blowing. So, yeah, thanks for asking that. I love telling that story. Brings me home.

Jeffrey Stern [01:02:34]:
I mean, someone Found Surface probably when they found your wallet.

Aidan Meany [01:02:40]:
Exactly. Give it back, please, if you have it. I love that wallet. But thanks, Jeffrey. Really appreciate all you do on this pod. And I've listened to Aaron's the other day and yeah, a lot of, you know, it's just awesome. So thanks again.

Jeffrey Stern [01:02:56]:
Absolutely.

Jeffrey Stern [01:03:00]:
That's all for this week. Thank you for listening. We'd love to hear your thoughts on today's show. So if you have any feedback, please send over an email to jeffreyofthelandfm or find us on Twitter oddleaoftheland or Sternfa J E F E. If you or

Jeffrey Stern [01:03:16]:
someone you know would make a good

Jeffrey Stern [01:03:18]:
guest for our show, please reach out as well and we. And let us know and if you enjoy the podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on itunes or on your preferred podcast player. Your support goes a long way to help us spread the word and continue to bring the Cleveland founders and builders we love having on the show. We'll be back here next week at the same time to map more of the land. The Lay of the Land podcast was developed in collaboration with the UP Company LLC at the time of this recording. Unless otherwise indicated, we we do not own equity or other financial interests in the company which appear on this show. All opinions expressed by podcast participants are solely their own and do not reflect the opinions of any entity which employs us. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a basis for investment decisions.

Jeffrey Stern [01:04:03]:
Thank you for listening and we'll talk to you next week.