#237: Tory & Michael Waxman (Sundays For Dogs) — Making the World’s Best Dog Food in Cleveland

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:00:00]:
We went to this farmer's market around here just with like little boxes and like a square reader and we had this sign printed up that said the world's best dog food is made in Cleveland. I think the first thing I want you to know about us is that we make the world's best dog food. But in the top five is that we also make it in Cleveland.

Jeffrey Stern [00:00:25]:
Hello everyone, I am Jeffrey Stern, your host of today's Ohio Fun Report with Michael and Tori Waxman, the founders of Sundays for Dogs. Sundays is a Cleveland based company designed to make dog parents lives easy. What began with their own dog, Mabel, and the simple question that Dr. Torrey, who is a seasoned veterinarian and loving dog parent, kept asking of why feeding Mabel and other dogs had to be so difficult, has since grown into one of the most exciting national consumer brands to emerge from Ohio as a leader of human grade 0 synthetics veterinarian formulated dog food. Since my last conversation with Michael and Tory in 2023 on lay of the land, Sundaes has scaled massively. They've raised more than 55 million in capital, built out a Cleveland based R and D test kitchen where our conversation today took place, and have grown from a direct consumer upstart into a nationally recognized brand preparing for omnichannel distribution. Along the way, they have not only created a product that dogs love, but a company that sits at the forefront of a booming pet food market. In our conversation, Michael and Tory reflect on Sunday's journey thus far, explore what's on the horizon for the company and unpack how they have navigated the challenges of scaling from customer acquisition and marketing shifts to balancing supply and demand, to elevating their senior leadership team, all while holding true to the values that inspired Sundays from the start, making it easier to be an awesome dog parent.

Jeffrey Stern [00:01:49]:
So with that, please enjoy this awesome conversation with Michael and Tori Waxman.

Jeffrey Stern [00:02:22]:
Michael, Tory, it's good to good to see you. Been a few years now since we've formally sat down and been able to reflect on the Sunday's journey thus far, which in startup time is like an eternity.

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:02:34]:
I love to joke that startup years are like dog years. So it's been about 20 years since the podcast.

Jeffrey Stern [00:02:40]:
That sounds about right. And we'll unpack those 20 years and what's transpired in that time. But I thought just to kind of, you know, level set and ground the conversation, you know, for those to whom maybe this is their first time hearing about Sundays, just a little bit about the both of yourself and how, you know, we got to where we are here today and just kind of an overview of Sundays itself.

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:03:03]:
Sure. If there's one thing to know about Sundays, it's that we make the world's best dog food. And it was born out of a veterinarian and a software engineer, Silicon Valley product guy. And, you know, I think that in a weird way, companies are such the product of the DNA of their founders in this kind of inescapable, inevitable way, for better and for worse, because we're humans and have flaws and biases. But I think, you know, all companies, big and small, really are reflections of their founders. And I think for us, you know, Tori just brings to the table this deep care for animals and setting a new standard in what dog food can be and really holding us to it. And for me, I kind of have this, you know, maybe delusional idea from Silicon Valley that a great product can really change the world for the better, and, you know, no better category to do that in than for dogs, because, as we always joke, if the roles were reversed, we know this is what they do for us. And so it's kind of the least we can do to really try to elevate the whole field.

Jeffrey Stern [00:04:11]:
So there is a certain business aphorism which are normally trite, but grounded in some kind of truth, which is the idea that what got you here won't get you there, and that the reward for solving the problems that get you here is just new problems, maybe bigger problems, but problems nonetheless. And I thought that's kind of a fun framing for our conversation here today, knowing what, what got you to our conversation last time, and call it early 23, is very different than what it took to get from 23 to where we are here today. And it's probably going to look very different from when we sit down in another two years, what it'll look like then. And really, you know, as a frame to talk about every part of the business, from how the your thoughts on brand, the product, operations, leadership, just kind of scaling across the board. So with that in mind, I just kind of wanted to ask, like, what's been the most surprising, you know, and salient learnings you've had of growing Sundays over the last two years and getting it to here?

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:05:14]:
I've probably had a hundred this week. But, Tori, do you want to chime in at that? And I have plenty of thought.

Tory Waxman (Sundays) [00:05:20]:
Yeah. I mean, I think that taking more control over our R and D, the R and D side of the business has been something that, you know, I think that two or three years ago I would have thought, oh, you know, we can continue to outsource that. We can continue to work with outside partners. Especially as we grow, we're going to get bigger and bigger. So we're going to outgrow our manufacturers. We're going to need more, we're going to need bigger. But at the end of the day, when it came down to it, what we concluded was we really wanted more control over that. And it ended up going even way smaller than I imagined.

Tory Waxman (Sundays) [00:05:51]:
And here we are in a kitchen that is now our R and D facility right here in Cleveland. And so instead of depending on outside partners for doing our test batches and making changes to our recipes, we can do that all here ourselves. And just having that control and not depending on outside partners and really owning all of that has been really a huge unlock. And as I said, I never would have expected to go small, but in a way that it allows us to make those, like, multiple changes and to do multiple experiments and look into many different changes we could possibly make to our current recipes as well as future recipes. We're always trying to do the best we can. As you know, we think our dog food's the best, but we're always looking at ways to make it better. So we're looking at iterating our current recipes, we're looking at creating future recipes. And by taking control of that ourselves, I'm hoping that we can do it better and make it better.

Jeffrey Stern [00:06:43]:
So I remember when we sat down last time to talk about Sundays at inception, you know, you were working through the development of recipes yourself and just, you know, how that's evolved over time and maybe just speak a little bit more to, you know, where we are here today and what those unlocks have been for the business.

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:07:01]:
Yeah, I mean, it's funny because my answer to the question of, like, what's probably the biggest thing I've learned over the past two years is there's this line I heard recently of you either believe in expertise or you don't. And I think this last chapter has been a lot about making the jump from a startup where everyone's a generalist and there's actually pretty little expertise around the table. And of course, obviously Tori has the background of a veterinarian and people have their expertise, but in general you have a lot of people doing things in ways that they've never done them before. And then as you start to scale the business, you realize that you really do need people with expertise who have dealt with the complexity and the risk mitigation and the have overcome the constraints of scaling something. But then there's this whole fear you have as a early stage startup person of, well, are they going to be too slow? Are they going to be too corporate? And I mean, you know, the reality is some of them are. But one of the things we've been really blessed with recently is being able to bring people onto the team who kind of have both. So they come from these big companies, they have PhDs or they have these really deep expertises in businesses that are much larger than we are today and they can see around the corners and help us navigate the next set of challenges. And yet they're really mission driven, they're really scrappy and quick.

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:08:30]:
And so I think that. And then that kind of brings us back to the test kitchen of some of our early R and D efforts. We kind of had a lot of generalists around the table and I think in retrospect that kind of slowed us down because we were all learning together and all of a sudden it was, oh, like, what if we actually pulled in a food scientist who's done this for a decade and brought in some other veterinary nutritionists and animal nutritionist PhDs. And if you do it the right way, it definitely has helped us go faster, further. And again, I think the test kitchen is a great example of that because it was really the brainchild of Vince, our head of operations, and he was the second employee of Kevin's Natural Foods, which was this amaz high growth company that sold to Mars for a billion dollars or something. And that was just one example of someone who had built a factory, built an R and D center. They were kind of like a meal kit business at first. So they had to create hundreds of recipes.

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:09:31]:
And he just kind of demystified it for us of, hey, yeah, we can make our own recipes, we can do our own test kitchen. Hey, it involves all these things. You have to bring in all this equipment and all this expertise. But I think having people with the experience who have already done it Gave us the courage to make the leap for some of these things.

Jeffrey Stern [00:09:52]:
Sunday's has scaled over the last few years, kind of operating at a higher order of magnitude, if you will. How have you seen the market itself change over that same kind of time? What's the state of dog food?

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:10:06]:
As I like to joke, it's a good time to be selling dog food. It's an even better time to be a dog. There are a lot of great options out there. Um, I mean, look, having done a few startups before, I think the only way to really build a meaningful business is to be riding on some kind of wave, right, that is larger than your company or your product. And I think we've just kind of continued to see this groundswell of a whole generation of dog parents who are looking for something better. And so I think you've only seen those trends continue to accelerate. And, you know, in my opinion, I actually think we're. I'm curious, you know, Tori, to weigh in on this from the vet perspective, but I actually think we're really early innings in this wave because today still probably 90 to 95% of people are feeding kibble, which is sort of this last generation of dog food.

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:11:07]:
And, you know, just based on our growth in some of the surveys we do talking to customers, I think at this point, as much as half of people are looking for something better. They want something healthier, more in line with the way they treat their dog as a member of the family, sleeps in their bed and so on. And now I think it's just a question of, you know, what is that thing that comes after kibble? And obviously in our view of the world, it's Sundays. And we imagine a future ten years from now where sundaes or something like sundaes, human grade shelf stable fresh is the default form factor that 90% of dogs eat. But we have a really long way to go to get there. But, you know, it's cool to be the beneficiaries of a wave like that, though, because you have other brands like the farmer's dog and even us now, we run TV ads. And so consumers are getting this surround sound education. And here are the benefits of feeding.

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:12:10]:
Feeding a healthier dog food, of feeding a human grade dog food. And then we can just come in and say, oh, and by the way, like, we think this is the best option in that. And so. But obviously there's a flip side of that, of, you know, the market just gets more and more crowded and how do you stand out and how do you Cut through the noise. And so it cuts both ways. But overall, I think it's a great sign to see the mission we're trying to achieve just gain so much momentum.

Jeffrey Stern [00:12:38]:
Yeah. Well, something that you had mentioned a while ago that stuck with me about just kind of the whole vision is like, what if there wasn't an asterisk and the asterisks, you know, being human grade. But then there's all the fine.

Tory Waxman (Sundays) [00:12:49]:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think. I think a lot of veterinarians nowadays frequently have nutrition conversations with their clients because they want to feed something better. But I can tell you, as a veterinarian, it was hard to read through all the marketing language. Every company said they were the best. Every company said they were all natural and this and did that. And at the end of the day, you know, your job is first and foremost to take care of sick animals, keep animals healthy.

Tory Waxman (Sundays) [00:13:15]:
You didn't have time to get weighed down by all of these different claims and try to, you know, figure out exactly what all these companies were standing for. And so when I started Sundays, my goal was to just create the diet that I felt was the best out there and the best for the dog and the easiest. I mean, as I joked last time, and it's still true, I don't cook for my own family every night, so I'm not going to be, you know, cooking for my dogs every night. And so if there is something out there that says, you know, easy as just pouring food into a bowl, but that is as healthy and as nutritious as feeding whole foods to create a complete and balanced meal, I mean, that is kind of the goal of Sundays. And I think that veterinarians are becoming more and more aware of, you know, the multiple diets available and the different form factors. And I do think that pet parents are continuing to demand a higher level of quality, and we're seeing that reflected in the market. I just hope that we can kind of break through the noise and show that, you know, we're not just another marketing company that happens to make dog food at the end of the day. You know, we're super passionate about our dogs.

Tory Waxman (Sundays) [00:14:17]:
And, I mean, we joke that we make Sundays for our own dogs and we happen to share it with other dogs. But it's true. Every batch of sundaes is made for our dogs. We begrudgingly to them, share it with other dogs, but it really is a passion project. You know, as a busy human and dog mom myself, you know, I don't have time to do everything, even though I Try and so if I can just make one thing in my day a little bit easier, such as feeding them the best food I can, but in the easiest way possible, that is such. Just like a little unlock for me in my busy life.

Jeffrey Stern [00:14:46]:
Well, you mentioned investment in leadership and narrow expertise. Is Mabel still the chief taste tester of the company?

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:14:55]:
She is, but it's only because she has a lot of experience now, you know, a lot of reps under her belt. She's eaten a lot of bad test batches and a lot of good ones. And so when she signs off, we know we're at least at her bar, which is pretty high.

Jeffrey Stern [00:15:09]:
Yeah. So how has your thinking on the marketing side of the business evolved? Obviously, the core is the product, and we can talk a little bit more about, you know, your vision for, for where that goes, more of, of what, you know, this kind of R and D unlocks. But you mentioned kind of the. There's more being pushed at consumers about alternatives to kibble and what folks might be familiar with. How do you differentiate in this space?

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:15:36]:
That's such a. That's such a great question. And I mean, I think so we're kind of fighting two different fights. I think one is explaining to people simply and clearly how different we are from kibble. Right. And so we're solving a totally different problem than kibble is. Right. Kibble is the cheapest way to give your dogs the kind of bare minimum nutrients they need to survive.

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:16:04]:
And that is an industry that's been around for 50 years. It's incredibly well optimized for cost. It's one of the cheapest sources of calories on earth, and you can feed dogs a kibble and they can live a long and full life eating kibble. But we're trying to do something totally different, which is we're trying to create the best possible food for your dog to thrive and fulfill them. Not just nutritionally and with the highest food safety standards, but also with taste.

Jeffrey Stern [00:16:37]:
Right.

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:16:37]:
I mean, we think of our dogs. You know, we've started to humanize them and, and we want them to kind of like self actualize and live their best life and enjoy every meal. And so we're kind of solving this totally different problem. And I think, again, more dog parents view their dogs that way, and so they kind of get it. Then the question becomes, all right, so you're convinced you want to feed your dog something better than kibble, but what should that be? What's too much? What's too little? And so that's kind of the other side of the equation of how do we kind of plainly, succinctly say that this is the best alternative dog food in the world? And the reality is, I think it's. We're still early on our journey there. I think our product is still far ahead of our marketing and our ability to tell a story about that product. And so one of the things that we've done on and off and we've recently leaned back into is just sampling and going to places where our customers are, where dogs are, and just getting food in bowls in front of humans and dogs that, you know, sort of a picture says a thousand words.

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:17:48]:
A dog gobbling up the food or the smell of it, because it smells totally different than dog food. You know, it's like a artisanal jerky, because that's kind of what it is that we found is sort of the simplest way just for people to get it. But, you know, look, in the grand scheme of things, this next chapter of our journey is all about how do we just get the word out about Sundays. We have a product that dogs love, that, you know, it works as a. As a business. And so it's just, you know, there's a hundred million dogs in the US and the vast majority of them have never heard of us, have never tried Sundays. And then how do you get the word out? And it's kind of the things you'd expect. It's Facebook ads and increasingly things like TV that reach a wider audience.

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:18:36]:
And then it's also. Yeah, what are maybe the creative ways to reach people? On sampling, can we go places where dogs are? And people are like. We joke sometimes, like, if we were ever to open a first retail store, like, maybe we do it in an airport or something. Because you go to an airport now, and it's like, there's dogs everywhere, but no one's selling dog food. And so I think, you know, while we're in this kind of cultural sea change of the way people treat dogs, there's all these new opportunities opening up, and we just have to figure out it's kind of marketing 101, right? Like, who's your customer? Where are they? How do you reach them? And ideally, how do you do it in a way that your competitors aren't? And, you know, and then I guess the last thing I'll say on that is, I think for us, we sort of have this, like, tragedy of riches, where there's so many great things about our product because we made it from first principles to be the best. And so there's so many things you can say about it. It's human grade, it's all natural, it's synthetic free, it's 90% needed. Beats the best tasting kibble in a taste test, 30 to 0.

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:19:37]:
We spend 50 times more on our ingredients than kibble. So for every five we put in our ingredients, a premium kibble only puts 10 cents. But as you scale, you kind of just need to simplify that message even further and make it more aerodynamic in a 10 second Instagram ad or a 30 seconds TV ad. What's the one thing we want you to know about us? And you know, I think we're still figuring out what that is. Is it that we're vet founded, is it that we have the cleanest ingredients? But you know, I'd rather have that problem than the reverse. But I think we have a lot of work to do to kind of just simplify and clarify our message even more as we try to reach a wider audience.

Jeffrey Stern [00:20:18]:
Well, and for, for better or worse, I feel like the medium of marketing and the kind of narrowing of the time you have to relay a message kind of forces that question to you guys anyway, 100%.

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:20:32]:
I mean, you know, attention spans are shorter than ever. And you know, I think one of the elements we try to lean into is, is the unexpected a little bit. And so we're launching a new recipe which came out of this test kitchen which, you know, enabled us to bring it to market. And you know, without giving anything away, I think we're gonna lean into whimsy a little bit and surprise and get people to turn heads because there's just so much going on in the world. It's really hard and a privilege to actually capture people's attention and. But again, though, like, we're in such a fruitful area, right? We're talking about dogs. We're doing things that are genuinely new and different. And so with a little bit of courage and creativity, we have that opportunity.

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:21:20]:
But you know, this upcoming launch I think is going to be a good opportunity for us to stretch our wings a little bit. You know, just do some, some fun things with, with the product and with the launch. Because look, I mean, dogs are fun.

Jeffrey Stern [00:21:33]:
Dogs are pretty fun. I'll pull on the fruitful thread for a moment because one of the things that was not obvious to me, I think, when we spoke two years ago, but has since been made pretty clear, is I didn't actually understand that Ohio is basically the dog food capital of the country. So just from a geographic standpoint, just talk for A moment about what it's been to invest in growth in Sundays here.

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:21:59]:
Well, first of all, I mean, Ohio is as a place that's had a lot of agriculture and meat. You know, that's tends to be where the dog food companies have been made. I mean, you have, you know, Nestle has their global headquarters of supply based right here in Cleveland. They're the second largest dog food company in the world behind Mars. Bill Jackson is, you know, 30 minutes down the road and they were an innovator. They were the first refrigerated dog food brand and that's become very popular in recent years. But they were around for, for decades. And you have some of the biggest kibble and other manufacturing plants in Ohio.

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:22:37]:
You have Smucker, which up until recently had one of the biggest dog food portfolios in the world before they sold most of it off to, to post. And so, I mean, it's, you know, going back to that theme of bringing in expertise. We're very fortunate to be in a place that has a ton of that expertise already right around us. We're close to the supply chain and so a lot of our key raw materials are nearby, we're centrally located. We're starting to do more and more of our shipping out of, out of Cleveland. And so look, we've had such a funny journey because we launched during COVID And so our zero to one story was on Zoom. I mean, there was this period from 2020 to 2021 where we had never met some of our early employees or investors in person because you couldn't travel. And everybody remembers those crazy times if you haven't blacked them out of your memory.

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:23:37]:
And so then it became a funny thing of all right, in 2022, people are getting back together. How do we scale this, this business? And I think frankly, a hard lesson we learned is that especially when it comes to operations, you really do need to be in person. There's, there's certain work that is, I think, totally fine on, on Zoom or, or remote. But when you're making stuff, when you're shipping stuff, when you're doing real research and R and D like we're doing here at the test kitchen, there's nothing that comes close to, to face to face. And so then, you know, we had kind of this funny adolescent period where, all right, do we have people move to Cleveland? So Vince is a great example. I mean, he starred with us and he lived in Texas and he, you know, packed up in a U haul with his whole family and moved to Cleveland. Just a few months ago, as we were opening the test kitchen and it's, you know, we've started to centralize our operations here. And again, it's centrally located, there's a ton of CPG and food expertise in the area.

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:24:43]:
And, you know, and thanks to folks like the Ohio Fund, increasingly there's capital, there's space, there's a brand new office building that we, we have some space in here. And so really there's all the, the pieces that you need. And then of course, it's a really affordable cost of, of living here. And so before we're, you know, throwing off tons of free cash flow for every dollar to go two or three times further than it would on the coast, it's really invaluable to a startup.

Jeffrey Stern [00:25:11]:
I remember you mentioning your early investors were excited about the prospect of you guys coming back to Ohio.

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:25:18]:
Yeah, no, exactly. I mean, they, they get it right. I mean, we're, we're just, you know, trying to, you know, on the business level, turn a small pile of money into a larger pile of money. And in a place where you have the expertise and the talent, but everything just costs less, it really increases your margin for error.

Jeffrey Stern [00:25:36]:
So I didn't necessarily want to revisit Covid, but you did bring it up. And I remember this incredible story that you had told about how during that period you were trying to procure a few thousand pounds of beef and the meat supply basically fell through and you had to kind of creatively, very entrepreneurial fashion, figure out where to get beef. I'll just use that as a, as a segue to talk about, I think supply, because one of the benefits, as far as the original framing of solve problems, unlock new problems, is that as the demand for Sundays grows and more people are aware of it and more people want it, you have to make sure there's enough dog food on the other side. And so I know over time you guys have come up to the limit of supply and how the evolution of your thinking on just making sure the supply chain is robust, and I've always found that story awesome.

Tory Waxman (Sundays) [00:26:35]:
But I mean, I would say, you know, over the past year, obviously there's been a lot of talk of the tariffs, but the good news is that almost all of our ingredients come from the US So that honestly was not a big issue for us. Our only one ingredient we get overseas is the calcium phosphorus source in our dog food is this grass fed beef bone from Australia that's ground up and that's what we put in our food is our calcium phosphorus source. So that's kind of our one international ingredient. But overall, most of our ingredients do come from the U.S. so we were very lucky to be shielded from a lot of the tariff issues. And it's funny, we had a lot of people be like, oh, my goodness, what are you guys doing about the tariffs? We were like, honestly, like, we really haven't thought about it. So we were, we were pretty lucky on that front. As we grow, you know, as Mike was touching on before, we've been able to hire experts.

Tory Waxman (Sundays) [00:27:21]:
The fact that, you know, five or six years ago, I was in charge of all of our ingredient procurement and supply chain is terrifying to think about. Thank God we have actual experts dealing with these things now. But we've brought on some incredible people in terms of supply chain and then also food safety just to make sure that as we grow, we continue to hold ourselves to the highest standards. And so even though we've been so lucky to grow, we're not letting that get in the way of how we hold ourselves to the highest standards and make sure that we continue to do so. And so we've been able to get some incredible people in the right seats to make sure that we continue to create the best and safest possible food for dogs. And so I'm really proud of our supply chain from, from that perspective, just from a food safety perspective as we continue to scale. And then also just from an ingredient perspective, I know you, you had put eggs on there, and eggs was definitely, you know, something that, you know. Yeah, so egg.

Tory Waxman (Sundays) [00:28:17]:
So egg price is something we do source domestically. But unfortunately there was that surge in egg pricing. And so the thing with eggs, just as like a side note from like a nerdy formulation side, eggs are great because they're a great protein source. They are also a great source of many vitamins and minerals, like vitamin B12 and vitamin D and selenium. But also they have a complete amino acid profile, which very few protein sources have that nice complete amino acid profile. So for many reasons, I love working with eggs in our food, but unfortunately we ran into an issue with egg pricing. But because of, you know, our robust supply chain team, we were able to kind of figure things out and make sure that we are continuing, continuing to include the high quality egg in our food. And we honestly, we did.

Tory Waxman (Sundays) [00:29:04]:
It cost us more. We did not pass that on to customers because we were not willing to, you know, make any kind of compromises on the quality of the product that we were putting on our food. And I think things have leveled Out. But the eggs was definitely a big. I don't know if you want to kind of follow up on that, but.

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:29:20]:
No, I mean, the. Yeah, the eggs were honestly just like a nightmare. I mean, I think at the peak, we were literally paying like, six times more for eggs than we used. I mean, they're, you know, they're a human grade egg, but we obviously have, like, a very specific spec, and we have to buy it in big quantities. So when it goes up twice in the grocery store, we're buying the same eggs. But for us, it can grow up, you know, go up four or five times in price. I think the broader paradox of the supply chain for us is something Tori and I both felt really strongly about, is we only wanted to start a dog food company if we were bringing something into the world that was genuinely new and different and better. And I think that's ultimately product has resonated with so many dog parents.

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:30:04]:
The flip side of that is it's really hard to make something like that, right. Because you can't just call up the kibble factory and just place a PO for. For dog food. We had to kind of figure it out ourselves. And so we've kind of gone through these fits and starts of all right, we figured out a small jerky kitchen where we can make our first batch. We've outgrown that. Where are we making our next level of food? And so scaling the supply chain has been really challenging. I mean, even from day one, it took us about two years to figure out a way to make the food commercially before we launched.

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:30:39]:
And every couple years, we've kind of run into a different bottleneck. And when we sort of reconnected last summer, we were in a bit of a crisis where we couldn't. Basically, the amount of food we thought we were able to make was more, turned out to be much less. And it was, on the one hand, a good problem to have that the demand for our product was greater than our ability to make it. On the other hand, it was still very much a problem because we had counted on certain growth to pay for our expenses and things like that. And all of a sudden, we couldn't make as much food as we wanted. And so we were fortunate enough, and frankly, we worked really hard and also got a little bit lucky to find some partners that let us expand to this next of scale. But as we learned the hard way a few times, you know, as soon as you kind of figure out the one bottleneck, you kind of already have to start thinking about the next One.

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:31:36]:
And you know, one of the amazing things about this test kitchen from where we're, we're doing this, this podcast is it's really helped, I think, demystify some of our manufacturing process for us because we obviously are intimate. You know, we kind of came up with it, so we're intimately familiar with it. But there's something about being able to come in here, make the food from start to finish ourselves on this kind of mini scale, which, I mean, first of all, I think it helps us inform how to make our product even better where we're currently producing it. And then all of a sudden it starts to say, okay, yeah, like what? You know, what if we, what if we made our own facility one day where we kind of did it from the ground up? Because again, we've always been kind of repurposing other equipment that wasn't designed to make this new sort of dog food. It was designed to jerky or is designed to make, you know, fruit roll ups or something and you've repurposed it for dog food. And so again, I think one of the many ways in which we're just getting started and really excited to see how again, Kibble's been perfecting how they make their food for 50 years. We've been at it for five, but really have only had the capacity to start to elevate the manufacturing process for the last couple months. And so it's exciting to think, think where we can maybe take that in the next few years.

Jeffrey Stern [00:32:59]:
Totally. With regards to just getting started, the whole business to date has been direct to consumer. And I know you've talked about, you know, meeting folks where they are with regards to their understanding of dog food and what the offerings are. How are you guys thinking about distribution?

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:33:18]:
I mean, for us it's always been a question of when and how, not if we're going to go into other sales channels because we do have this shelf stable product that can easily go to places to meet dog parents where they are in a way that some of our competitors products can't as easily because they deal with cold supply chains. I think for us the challenge is, I mean there's a lot of challenges, right? So I just saw a graph that just recently. E commerce sales as a percentage of.

Tory Waxman (Sundays) [00:33:50]:
All.

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:33:53]:
Retail sales in the US just returned to Covid levels. And I forget what the number is, if it's 30% or whatever. But the tricky thing is it's a little bit like catching a falling knife because we're selling online where all the behavior is moving Too. Right. And so still more dog food is sold in brick and mortar retail than it is online. But those sales channels are shrinking. And so how do we find the right partner, the right place to enter retail when we're again benefiting from these huge tailwinds of people going online in our current distribution channel of 100% direct to consumer? But again, ultimately, part of reaching every dog parent is getting our product to other places in front of people. And so in the next couple years, I think we're definitely going to start to experiment.

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:34:49]:
And there's shades of gray, obviously there's Amazon, and of course, in the pet food space, there's Chewy, which is sort of own mini Amazon in our space. And then, you know, there's all sorts of places where you sell dog food. And brick and mortar are grocery stores, there are pet specialty retailers, there are independent pet shops. And they all have different pros and cons. But again, like at this phase of our mission, it is all about just getting the word out and almost as, as like a billboard. If nothing else, just putting our food in other places is definitely a part of it.

Jeffrey Stern [00:35:26]:
How has the product experience itself shifted over time? I mean, I see the boxes here. I know there's been a lot of intentionality and thought given to things that many people probably would never even notice.

Tory Waxman (Sundays) [00:35:38]:
Yeah, well, I think one thing is obviously Sundays is a product for dogs. And you know, first and foremost, we're worried about the dog, but we also, you know, take into account the human. And so we want it to be a great experience for both the dog and the human.

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:35:52]:
Look, I think, look, something we say a lot internally is that you feed your dog twice a day every day. That's 730 times a year. So if we can delight the human and make them smile or make that experience a little bit easier, better, funnier, then, you know, we're kind of creating that connection with, with the customer. And, and so look, I think again, we're pretty early innings. You know, the, the cereal boxes is sort of this fun wink to the way that our customers treat their dogs as. And also it's kind of coming in a shipping box anyways. But, you know, part of the idea with the cereal box was always to, because we're printing on paper, be able to like, tell different stories and do different fun things for the packaging. And up until recently, we were just kind of holding on for dear life and trying to make enough product to meet demand.

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:36:45]:
And so we didn't really have the wherewithal to do that, but sort of watch this space. I think in the coming months, we're planning to again use that as an opportunity to tell stories, to educate, to inspire fire, to spark joy in again. This ritual that you do, you know, almost a thousand times a year. I think there's also lot, you know, again, we were so laser focused on making the best dog food, which is of course the center of the experience. But I think there's so many improvements. You know, as a founder, you're always, I'm always looking at everything we're doing today and thinking how much better it can be. And you know, you're thinking about the prototypes and the mockups for the next version that we're already working on. And I think from the website, from the unboxing experience, there's so much stuff we have in the works that's, you know, we're starting to send to customers, even this month of measuring cups and feeding bowls.

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:37:44]:
And there's just so many little ways that I think we can elevate the experience further. And it's a privilege to be able to think about stuff like that because again, a couple years ago we just weren't in that spot where it's what could we deliver in terms of the food and just getting it to you on time and those little things. But now I think we have the luxury of looking at the whole experience. And again, we're, you know, you can see, I think some stuff actually don't know exactly what's behind us, but you know, there's some, yeah, some, some bulls were. We're experimenting with and, and just kind of figuring out, yeah, how, how can we elevate the whole experience even further?

Jeffrey Stern [00:38:21]:
This may seem like a strange question, but how are you guys thinking about AI?

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:38:26]:
I mean, that it's such a good question, you know, and we were talking about this the other day, but look, I think, you know, and it's funny because the co founder of my previous startup has become like a luminary in AI and actually a co founder of Anthropic. And so it's a space I've followed closely for a long time and bringing it into commerce. I do think we have to start considering a future where the way people buy products does change pretty dramatically. And so Maybe you ask ChatGPT what's the best dog food and people buy it directly from there without going to our website or without going to a brick and mortar store. And then you start to do the math of, okay, well in that future, what actually really matters? What is creating value for the customer and as a business and you know, look, I think there's kind of only a few things that will matter in that future. Unfortunately, it's the things that largely we already think about and matter a lot today. But it's, it's R and D and intellectual property, right? Like that is something that in that world becomes even more important, right? Because you kind of can't hide behind marketing as much when you have these super intelligences figuring out like, what's the best dog food. You really have to do the work to create the best dog food.

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:39:53]:
So you have, you know, R and D&IP, you have operational excellence. Right? Like, I think we're still quite a ways off from robots building dog food factories and stuff. And so for us, again, it's like having operational excellence, making the best food at a reasonable cost, getting it to people. That's something we're going to continue invest in. And then I think brand is actually going to be probably more informal important in the future than in, in the past because again, you know, you're going to imagine a world where these super intelligences are just looking out for again, you have someone go to ChatGPT, what's the best dog food? Again, you can't really fake it, you can't really hide. You actually have to be the best and invest into, you know, being out there in the world and in places where the AIs and stuff can, can pick up on it. One dream of mine for AI is that we can use it to talk directly to dogs at some point in the near future. I think that's, you know, I don't know what the science behind that is, but I think that, you know, it wouldn't surprise me if could decode a dog.

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:41:04]:
WHIMPERS AND BARKS and, you know, one of those, like from a cartoon where like, you're talking to dogs like, you know what? If that's in our future, sign me up for it.

Jeffrey Stern [00:41:14]:
How sci fi is that concept?

Tory Waxman (Sundays) [00:41:16]:
Well, they're already using AI to decode whale language, which is not surprising because I feel like whales are incredibly complex creatures. So they're already using AI to, and I think they used AI to help figure out that dolphins, like have individual names for each other. I don't know if exactly, but I mean they, and all this. Yeah, they're way smarter than we ever give them credit for.

Jeffrey Stern [00:41:34]:
Well, as, as dogs keep getting elevated in our society and kind of integrated into family structures, you know, in some regards we're investing as much into dogs as. And so we are into children. And where do you see all of this going, like, with regards to dogs in society?

Tory Waxman (Sundays) [00:41:52]:
I mean, obviously I'm very partial to dogs being part of our families, but I think we, you know, we live that every day. We have three human children, three dog children, and we all, you know, coexist. Is our house a little crazy? Yes. Is it wonderful? Is it fun? Yes. So I think that people really want that life encompassing their dogs into their family. You know, Sundays obviously came out of that DNA and that DNA of us having our dogs as a part of our family. And so I think that as, you know, humans start to evolve and as AI continues to evolve, I mean, you know, maybe we'll be the dogs one day to the AI robots and, you know, we'll just get fed and taken care of and taken for walks while AI does all the work. You know, is that the dream? But no, I think it is kind of really interesting, kind of where this is all headed.

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:42:41]:
And it's funny, as a dog food company, something that's been on our minds recently is I, I do think that there's a need for basically a class of standards that are kind of exist in between sort of other animals and humans because a, you know, I think that oftentimes cultural change and technological change happens faster than the legal system or the regulatory framework can, can catch up, certainly. And so, as you know, anyone who's familiar with like dog food would, you know, sort of like regulatory. Would know it's regulated by a division of the USDA called aafco, which is an acronym that in part stands for feed control. So it's literally like the division that oversees what you can feed cows and chickens and aquaculture fish.

Tory Waxman (Sundays) [00:43:41]:
It's like the software we use to formulate our diets is the same exact software I used in my animal nutrition courses in undergrad to like create sheep rations and, you know, chicken rations. So that is the same formula. So this is kind of where we are. Yeah.

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:43:57]:
And a generation ago, I do think dogs were kind of clumped in with those other animals. But I think we can all admit that that's no longer the case. And so again, so for instance, for us, like we're human gr, which means that everything that we do has to meet 100% of this FDA defined standards for fit for human consumption. But right now it's this binary choice between feed grade, which is really designed for all these other animals, not dogs, and human grade, which again, as much as we overlook this sometimes because we do treat them as the member, as members of the families, dogs are a different, different species. So there are actually, for instance, organ meats that aren't really part of the human supply chain that are actually the healthiest source of certain nutrients for dogs. And right now we actually struggle sometimes to get human grade organ meats as an example, or this bone that we were talking about earlier, which is this pharmaceutical grade, kind of crazy human grade bone. But there's probably better ways to kind of get dogs the nutrients they need, but at the safety levels that we expect for humans. And so one of the things we're, you know, starting to think about again, as we have a little bit more time and resources to think about stuff like this is, yeah, what if there was actually like a third category of food safety that was, you know, not human grade and not feed grade, but it was a, you know, family grade or, or something like that.

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:45:42]:
That kind of combined the food safety standards we expect for humans with some of the nutritional specificities that dogs require. Because again, they, at the end of the day, are, are not Homo sapiens. They're a different species, and they need different things. And so I, I think, you know, and that's for food. But you can zoom out. I think we need to relight, rewrite a lot of our laws and policies about where dogs fit into in our lives. Dogs flying on planes, dogs going in restaurants, where right now there's a lot of tension because there's just dissonance with, again, you can take your family members to these places, but you can't take a goat into a restaurant. But should you be able to take a dog? Yeah, probably.

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:46:28]:
But like, under what circumstances and how do we keep it safe for everybody? And so I think there's like, again, we're pretty early on in trying to navigate how do we change some of the laws and the regulations to catch up with the way that we've culturally elevated dogs.

Jeffrey Stern [00:46:44]:
So I think you maybe introduced at least the topic a bit with the conversation on, you know, the parts of, of work that are important to do in person.

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:46:54]:
Podcasts.

Jeffrey Stern [00:46:55]:
Podcasts, sure. No, it's a lot, a lot. How's the culture itself of Sunday?

Tory Waxman (Sundays) [00:47:01]:
I mean, I think being in person has been such an unlock. I think, like, you know, it's one thing to look at someone in a zoom box. It's another thing like roll up our sleeves and we'll put on our gloves and get to work in the kitchen. Working side by side, I think that it just creates such a rapport and it really builds those relationships And I think everyone who we have on the team, which has been so awesome to see everyone is willing to really just contribute in all aspects. So, you know, for example, we have these highly trained food scientists that are happy to go out and figure out how they can find a mixer that best works for us. And if the electric on the mixer isn't working, figure out, you know, oh, I'm going to call this guy in to help fix the elect. And it's just one of those things where no one is above or below any job. And this, the idea that we're all kind of working towards this common goal and that we're all willing to kind of put in the work wherever it is, I think has just been so wonderful, especially with this past year, and especially being in person, I think you really don't see that level of dedication without building those in person relationships.

Tory Waxman (Sundays) [00:48:01]:
And that's something that I've really appreciated over the past little bit.

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:48:05]:
Yeah, I think that's, I mean, in person has been huge for us. And look, I think that a company will only go as far as its people. And something that I think we've started to be more deliberate about is really clearly, crisply articulating what are the shared values that define us and really having the audacity to live by them, to hire and fire by them and say, hey, these are the things that we believe and the way we do things, that's different than the way that other companies do things. And if you're not up for that, it doesn't mean you're a bad person or it doesn't mean that, you know, you don't have maybe great expertise in your field, but you're just, you're just not gonna love it here. And we need people who love it here because we work really hard and we try to tackle really hard problems and, you know, we can't be on the diff, you know, a different page. And so I think that, look, I think that's been a lesson though, because people talk about culture and values a lot, but it's way easier said than done, actually live by those values and have the courage to say, man, this person is the best at the world, at what they do, but they don't share one of our core values, and so they probably shouldn't work here. And again, we've, we've made that mistake of sort of bending that rule of we like to work fast, they like to work slow. Oh, but they're so good at what they do.

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:49:31]:
Let's, let's Find them a seat here. But as we've started to focus on that though too, I do think there's. This whole is greater than the sum of its parts of just everything just gets easier and more fluid and better and. But again though, it's. I think we've really seen what it means to live by those values and. Cause ultimately, culture isn't what you say, it's what you do. And again, I think, you know, in bringing it back to Tori's comment of in person, I think that that's also accelerated that a little bit. I think like, you know, just being in the same room with someone, working on a hard problem in a room can sometimes like reveal whether your values are actually shared or not in a way that is probably faster than over zoom.

Jeffrey Stern [00:50:23]:
How would you articulate what the culture of Sundays is?

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:50:27]:
Yeah, I mean, you know, we have some core values that we're actually like in the process of re. Wordsmithing right. Right now. And so, you know, some of the, you know, it's like some examp of things of we that have this value of seeking truth, not comfort. And again, you know, I think it comes from this very, you know, this mindset of scientific rigor and truth seeking. And it's not what do you want to be true, but like, what is actually true? Like, is this new recipe better than our old recipe? Like, yes or no? Like, that isn't a question of wishful thinking, that's a question of. Of empiricism. Is this new webpage easier to use or harder to use? I'd like to think it's easier to use because I poured hours of my being into making it better.

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:51:14]:
But we have to be honest about whether it is or not. And our customers ultimately tell us that, you know, team over ego. One of the things that I think good values have in common too, is that they are somewhat distinct to us.

Jeffrey Stern [00:51:29]:
Right.

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:51:30]:
I think that there are environments that maybe, maybe don't value intellectual honesty above all else. Maybe they, you know, there's bigger organizations. Oftentimes politics becomes a bigger thing. And you are with these. Yeah, I mean, that's. Well, that's, that's, you know, that's our only deal breaker now. But it's funny, that's even was sort of a debate about like, you know, like, obviously you need to love dogs, but what does that mean? Do you have to have a dog? Do you have to. And so calibrating that has been.

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:51:59]:
Look, I, I think it's been, it's been a great journey to just, again, like, figure out how we prioritize and again, just like, articulate the shared behaviors that we really value and, and find important.

Jeffrey Stern [00:52:13]:
What is that? What does that future look like? What, what is, what is the market of, of dog food? What is Sunday's role within it? What are you guys most looking forward to when you think about what comes next?

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:52:26]:
I mean, you know, I think at this point we're just trying to make Sundays a household name. You know, hopefully we're in a bigger room. This one's getting a little tight. And, you know, I think it's more about the world outside of this room. I want to be able to walk up to someone in the street with the dog and ask them if they've heard of Sundays. And obviously I want that answer to be yes, but more than that, I want them to know exactly what we stand for and say, oh, yeah, sundaes, they make the world's best dog food and they, they're the most reliable resource for the modern dog parent because they're vet founded and they only use the best ingredients. And, and so I think that's, you know, that's the, the path we're going on. And, and look, we'd love a million dogs to eat sundaes every day.

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:53:18]:
Day one day, maybe 10 million dogs eat Sundays every day. And I think our work will be done when the whole field is elevated and Sundays is kind of the default. Right. And this level of health, food safety, taste delight just is table stakes for the whole category. And again, hopefully we're, we're leading that category. But even if we're sharing it with others, if the whole state of the art is elevated to where we think it should be and for what dogs deserve, then I think that will be mission accomplished.

Jeffrey Stern [00:53:58]:
When you reflect on the whole journey and everything we've talked about, are there any important parts that you feel we've missed that you want to share Now?

Tory Waxman (Sundays) [00:54:08]:
See, obviously there's been a lot of changes, but I think just building out the team in person in Cleveland is something that I don't think two years ago either of us really had on our radar. And it's just been such an unlock.

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:54:19]:
Yeah, I mean, I feel like Cleveland deserves a shout out too. It's funny, before we even launched, this was 2019, where we only had prototypes of food and we hadn't yet figured out how to manufacture it commercially. But we went to this farmer's market around here just with like little boxes and like a square reader, and we had this sign printed up that said the world's best dog food is made in Cleveland. And so to kind of maybe tie it together, I think that would be my parting message that you know, if, you know, I think the first thing I want you to know about us is that we make the world's best dog food, but in the top five is that we also make it in Cleveland.

Jeffrey Stern [00:55:07]:
Well, that's a perfect place to wrap it. Michael Tory, thank you for taking the time, reflecting and I look forward to.

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:55:15]:
Get it on the calendar two years from now.

Jeffrey Stern [00:55:18]:
If folks wanted to learn more about Sundays, if they wanted to purchase Sundays, where on the interwebs should they go.

Michael Waxman (Sundays) [00:55:28]:
To learn more about more Sundays for dogs.com and yeah and and feel free just you know, if you want to shoot us an email just foundersundays for dogs.com and start for you to to try it.

Tory Waxman (Sundays) [00:55:41]:
Perfect.

Jeffrey Stern [00:55:42]:
Thank you for tuning in to the Ohio Fund Report. If you enjoyed this podcast, we'd love for you to leave a review on your favorite platform and subscribe to stay updated on all future episodes. You can subscribe via Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or directly on our website at TheOhioFund.com the information shared on this podcast is for informational purposes only and does not constitute investment advice, an offer to sell, or a solicitation of an offer to buy any security. Past performance is not indicative of future results. The views and opinions expressed by our guests are solely their own and do not necessarily represent those of the Ohio Fund. A guest's participation in this podcast does not imply an endorsement or an investment recommendation by the Ohio Fund Fund. This podcast may include conversations with leadership of a company in which the Ohio Fund or its affiliated funds have an investment and as such, financial interest in the success of this company and there may be a conflict of interest in presenting information about the company and its performance. Any forward looking statements or projections discussed during this episode are based on current expectations, assumptions and estimates.

Jeffrey Stern [00:56:54]:
Actual outcomes may differ materially due to a variety of risks, uncertainties and other factors. Listeners should consult their own legal, tax and financial advisors before making any investment decisions. For more information about the Ohio Fund, including our Form 80V, other regulatory filings and additional conversations, please visit TheOhioFund.com.