#226: Terry Coyne (Terry Coyne Properties) — Risk, Patience & Opportunity
Terry Coyne is an Executive Vice Chairman of Newmark and Principal of Terry Coyne Properties. Over his 25-plus-year career, Terry has become one of Ohio’s most accomplished commercial real estate leaders, negotiating more than 2,000 transactions totaling over $5 billion in value. In Cleveland alone, over the past five years, he and his team have brokered 250 transactions worth more than $1.2 billion.
In our conversation, we cover Terry’s unique philosophy and strategy on real estate, risk, and patience — which have led him to a diverse range of opportunities, from representing companies like GOJO and L’Oréal, to redeveloping the old Chrysler Plant, building the MidTown Tech Park in Cleveland, and now leading the 670+ acre site at Rickenbacker adjacent to Anduril’s new Arsenal 1 Hyperscale Manufacturing Facility.
We also break down Terry’s views on Ohio’s regional markets, what he’s learned from his father, the intersection of real estate and entrepreneurship, and his perspective on the future of the state’s economy — from data centers and energy policy to the cultural ambition needed for Ohio to continue its rise.
00:00:00 - Introduction to Terry Coyne and His Career
00:25:48 - Exploring Ohio's Unique Markets
00:30:38 - Land vs. Real Estate: Understanding Value
00:37:16 - The Future of Work: Remote vs. In-Office
00:42:59 - Taxation and Its Impact on Real Estate
00:49:48 - Hidden Gem
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LINKS:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/terrycoyne/
https://terrycoyne.com/terry-coyne-properties/
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SPONSOR:
Roundstone Insurance is proud to sponsor Lay of The Land. Founder and CEO, Michael Schroeder, has committed full-year support for the podcast, recognizing its alignment with the company’s passion for entrepreneurship, innovation, and community leadership.
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Over the past two decades, Roundstone has grown rapidly, creating nearly 200 jobs in Northeast Ohio. The company works closely with employers and benefits advisors to navigate the complexities of commercial health insurance and build custom plans that prioritize employee well-being over shareholder returns. By focusing on aligned incentives and better health outcomes, Roundstone is helping businesses save thousands in Per Employee Per Year healthcare costs.
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Past guests include Justin Bibb (Mayor of Cleveland), Pat Conway (Great Lakes Brewing), Steve Potash (OverDrive), Umberto P. Fedeli (The Fedeli Group), Lila Mills (Signal Cleveland), Stewart Kohl (The Riverside Company), Mitch Kroll (Findaway — Acquired by Spotify), and over 200 other Cleveland Entrepreneurs.
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Terry Coyne [00:00:00]:
I think you exercise creativity every single day in my business because a lot of what I do is negotiations. And they say that when you meet someone, you can pick up 2 million visual and audio cues. When you talk to somebody on the phone, you pick up 40. When you do an email, you pick up zero. So I always try to meet people because you try to understand what motivates someone on a transaction. I mean, it could be money, it could be timing, it could be a personal issue. Who knows, it could be a tax issue. And I think you win based on an idea.
Jeffrey Stern [00:00:29]:
Hello everyone, I am Jeffrey Stern, your host of today's Ohio Fund Report with Terry Coyne, Executive Vice Chairman of Newmark and Principal of Terry Coyne properties. Over his 25 plus year career, Terry has become one of Ohio's most accomplished commercial real estate leaders, negotiating more than 2,000 transactions totaling over $5 billion in value just in Cleveland. In the last five years alone, he he and his team have brokered over 250 transactions worth more than $1.2 billion. In our conversation today, we cover Terry's unique philosophy and strategy on real estate risk and patience, which has led him to a diverse set of opportunities from representing companies like Gojo and l' Oreal to redeveloping the old Chrysler plant building, the midtown tech park in Cleveland, to now leading the 670 acre site at Rickenbacker, adjacent to Anduril's new Arsenal One hyperscale manufacturing facility. We also break down Terry's views on Ohio's regional markets, what he's learned from his father, the intersection of real estate and entrepreneurship, and his perspective on the future of the state's economy, from data centers and energy policy to the cultural ambition needed for Ohio to keep rising. So please enjoy this awesome conversation with Terry Coyne.
Disclaimer [00:01:47]:
Hello everyone and welcome to the Ohio Fund Report, a show dedicated to raising the collective ambition of Ohio. Before we dive in, Just a quick note, this podcast is for informational purposes only. Nothing you hear today should be taken as investment advice, a recommendation or an offer to buy or sell any securities. Please note that the Ohio Fund and its affiliates may maintain investments in the companies discussed. Any forward looking statements you hear today are based on current expectations and may change. Please do your own research and consult with your advisors before making any investment decisions. For more information on the Ohio fund, please visit theohiofund.com.
Jeffrey Stern [00:02:20]:
Lave the land is brought to you and is proudly sponsored by Roundstone Insurance, headquartered in Rocky River, Ohio. Roundstone shares lay of the Land's same passion for bold ideas and lasting impact from our community's entrepreneurs, innovators and leaders. Since 2005, Roundstone has pioneered a self funded captive health insurance model that delivers robust savings for small and medium sized businesses. They are part of the solution to rising healthcare costs, helping employers offer affordable, high quality care while driving job creation and economic growth throughout Northeast Ohio. Like many of the voices featured on Lay of the Land, including Roundstone's founder and CEO Mike Schroeder, Roundstone believes entrepreneurship, innovation and community to be the cornerstones of progress. To learn more about how Roundstone is transforming employee health benefits by empowering employers to save thousands in per employee per year healthcare costs, please visit roundstoneinsurance.com Roundstone Insurance built for entrepreneurs, backed by innovation, committed to Cleveland I wanted to start with this idea that authenticity naturally gets you away from competition because no one can really compete with being yourself. And I thought that was kind of a fun place to start because I think people may know Terry Coyne the brand, I believe from your prominence around Cleveland and throughout the state, you know, presence on billboards in the airport, publicity like that. But I wanted to start with you as a, as a person distinct from the brand that more might be familiar with and if you could, you know, just take us back.
Jeffrey Stern [00:04:03]:
What was young Terry Coyne like and did he imagine he'd be such a force in Ohio real estate when he grew up?
Terry Coyne [00:04:10]:
First, I'm glad that you noticed the advertising. So I appreciate that. It's I've had a billboard error sign for the airport billboard for a very long time and for the initially people kind of made fun of you and then it gets to a point where the billboard becomes part of zeitgeist and people take pictures next to it. So it's been good advertising as long as you stick with it. Which I expose is always the story for, for advertising. So thank you for noticing. No, I didn't expect to be in real estate. So the the origin story would be that my father was this a Cleveland was a Clevelander.
Terry Coyne [00:04:45]:
He was born, became an orphan at the age of five, was raised by nuns at Parmadale, which was a orphanage on the west side. And then he went to Benedictine and then he went to Notre Dame, went to the was drafted in the Korean War and got into law, which led to him being owed money by a guy who paid him in part with a parking lot. And that parking lot my dad didn't really want. He wanted the money that he was owed. But he looked at it as an opportunity, as he did with Everything in his life, he was great. He was grateful that he was orphaned, which is kind of funny. So that parking lot led him into a life in real estate. And he started off a poor man and passed away just this year as a very successful man.
Terry Coyne [00:05:27]:
And I was the. I am the youngest of six. So I. I guess I'm fortunately from a birth order, I'm the youngest. I had huge advantages in that. My dad's parking business at one point was the largest in Cleveland, one of the sixth largest in America. He had a thousand employees. He was in all throughout the Midwest.
Terry Coyne [00:05:43]:
And it was called Coin Can Guesser. So I had name recognition just because of dad. So I went into. I went to Notre Dame like he did, and then I went to graduate school. And I went to graduate school to become a professor of political theory. So my goal was to get a PhD from the University of Chicago and then become a professor, you know, in college. And I really enjoyed Montesquieu's Theory of the Laws. And that's what I focused on for a year.
Terry Coyne [00:06:12]:
But I realized I was completely outmatched and decided I gotta get outta this. Cause these people are smarter than me way. I mean, incredibly talented people who have gone on to great success in their fields. And then I went into real estate in Chicago. My dad helped me get a job as a broker and did that for a couple years. That was. I love the people, very competitive environment, a lot of cold calling. And then came back home and did the same thing, going right into brokerage.
Terry Coyne [00:06:38]:
I've ever had a job that wasn't commissionable, and I've never had a job that wasn't sales. So they say that where you go to college gets you your first job, and then your first job kind of sets you on your career path. And I think that's probably true for me. But, you know, I came back home and got into real estate brokerage in 1996, bought property shortly thereafter. And I kind of did what my dad did. He went into the parking business and then he went into the ownership business. And he taught me at an early age, you're better off owning real estate than you are servicing real estate. And like him, I ended up kind of doing both.
Jeffrey Stern [00:07:15]:
What are some of the other lessons you've taken with you from your father?
Terry Coyne [00:07:21]:
Oh, so many. I mean, my dad got into Notre Dame because he was going to John Carroll, and there was a priest who said, hey, I think you should go to Notre Dame. And got him in, like, you know, it was a Thursday or whatever. He went and by the Friday he was at Notre Dame, he had to hitchhike there. And I got into Notre Dame because I was in the alumni pool. And the alumni pool is an easier pool. I'll, I'll admit it. I got in.
Terry Coyne [00:07:44]:
So when you think about the value of a small favor by a priest in 1948, then accrued to my benefit. 1988. So dad gets in and I get in because of dad, but dad got in because of a priest. So, you know, you don't really know how those things work out. And certainly the priest would never have known that 40 years later his good will changed my life, getting it under name. So, you know, he was a hard working guy, very grateful guy, a guy who didn't start with anything and looked at every situation as an opportunity, not as some type of a burden. And I was always amazed that he was orphaned and loved the nuns and appreciated even later in life, supported Parmadale. But he gave me a great last name.
Terry Coyne [00:08:29]:
He gave me his time. And those are things that are not. You can't put a price on that. I mean, certainly I grew up with the best schools thanks to his hard work, but his last name and his time were more valuable than money. And he just passed away in April. April 18th.
Jeffrey Stern [00:08:47]:
I'm sorry for your loss.
Terry Coyne [00:08:49]:
Yeah, thanks. But he was 94 years old. He had a good life.
Jeffrey Stern [00:08:53]:
So, I mean, since those kind of fledgling early days, I mean, you've since done thousands of real estate transactions, billions of dollars worth of real estate transactions. What would you tell yourself now, knowing all that you've accomplished when you were starting out? How much is the Delta and what you've learned from where you are now relative to where you were?
Terry Coyne [00:09:19]:
Yeah, you know, it's, it's funny how little I knew and how much I thought I knew. As I get older, I realize I think I'm good at just two things. If there's ever a zombie apocalypse and we have to have like real skills, life skills and hunting and fishing, and I don't have any. Right. I'm really good at negotiating and I'm really good at industrial deals, primarily land. And I bought properties early on. I got the question all the time, how do you get started in real estate? And my answer is to get started. And I bought a building when I was 26 years old and it cost me a hundred thousand dollars.
Terry Coyne [00:09:51]:
And I sold it to the neighbor about a week later for $150,000. And I got lucky. I kind of thought I would get lucky, but I didn't Have a plan B. I probably shouldn't have done it because it was all the money I had in my life and I was confident in myself and I probably didn't deserve that confidence, but it taught me how to buy a building, taught me how to close building and what to be worried about with the phase ones and the environmentals and the titles. So until you own real estate, it is hard to know how to be in real estate. I mean, go buy a duplex or a single or go buy a small building, but the best way to start is to start. You could take classes and all that, but you want, I mean, you want to learn, stay up at night and worry.
Jeffrey Stern [00:10:30]:
You'll. You'll earn in practice a lot more than in theory.
Terry Coyne [00:10:33]:
Yeah. Yeah. So I'm. What would I tell them? I don't know. I think I'm amazed at how confident I was at a young age, not knowing what I know now.
Jeffrey Stern [00:10:44]:
Were there humbling experiences along those early days?
Terry Coyne [00:10:49]:
Yeah, but I just, I mean, I know myself well enough to know that I think I had undeserved confidence. And I grew to appreciate my father's hard work. I always, I always appreciated it. I. Even from a young age, I appreciate it because anyone who's orphaned does that well. But as I got older and we had lunches every Tuesday and then he was retiring, we became partners in deals. I'd go to the house, his house, on Saturdays and we'd have lunch at Flatiron. Not the Flatiron, the Harp.
Terry Coyne [00:11:16]:
But I really appreciated his time and his energy and how much of an advantage that was. So I don't know. I'm not sure if I've answered your question, but I wouldn't switch it. I thought about becoming a lawyer. All my brothers are lawyers. I applied to law school. I like the creativity. I like the day to day changing nature of what we do.
Terry Coyne [00:11:37]:
I mean, who knew there was a podcast 10 years ago, right? I mean, so here we are doing a podcast about real estate. I don't know. Every day is different and I like, I like the interaction with people.
Jeffrey Stern [00:11:47]:
How do you feel you get to exercise creativity in real estate?
Terry Coyne [00:11:51]:
I think you exercise creativity every single day in my business because a lot of what I do is negotiations. And they say that when you meet someone, you can pick up 2 million visual and audio cues. When you talk to somebody on the phone, you pick up 40. When you do an email, you pick up zero. So I always try to meet people because you try to understand what motivates someone on a transaction. I mean, it could be money, it could be timing, it could be a personal issue, who knows, it could be a tax issue. And I think you win based on an idea. And I don't know how we outpace AI.
Terry Coyne [00:12:25]:
It scares me to death. I think if there's any way we outpace it is that we are able to take the inputs, I'm sorry, the outputs of AI and use them for more creative things. Every year I have interns. This year I've got an intern named Aiden Austin, super nice guy, and he's working right over there. And yesterday I said, build me an app with this data. And he used Replit, which you probably know. And replit's gone from zero users to a hundred million users in six months. And by the end of yesterday, with a liberal arts degree and exactly no experience building an app, he built an app.
Terry Coyne [00:13:02]:
That same app, I was quoted $50,000 in six weeks. So I mean, think about how many people just lost money, how many people don't need office space and what does that mean? I don't know. But the app allowed me to take inputs, create outputs which help me make decisions better and faster. So I think it takes creativity every day. It's also kind of scary.
Jeffrey Stern [00:13:31]:
It is pretty scary. I mean, it's a very dual edged kind of idea of what the implications will be going forward. Creating a lot of opportunity, but also I think a disruptive force for sure.
Terry Coyne [00:13:45]:
Yeah, I mean, I read about the 50% of the starting jobs will be gone in the next five years. That's not good for society. Like what are we doing? So I don't know how to combat that. But it will take a great deal of creativity to stay ahead of it. And we'll see.
Jeffrey Stern [00:14:08]:
It feels to me if there's an area that is most immune to the development of AI, it would be in personal relationships and in trust between people. And you mentioned earlier really kind of in pursuit of two strengths of yours, one being negotiation and the other industrial and land. And we could talk about the latter in a moment. But what do you feel has allowed for you to become good at negotiation? And how do you even think about negotiation?
Terry Coyne [00:14:45]:
Yeah, I mean, I live in a world of yes or yes, but I don't live in a world of no. And I think that's a mindset that both sides have to win, especially in what I do. I mean, a lawyer is an advocate for a client, of which I am, but on some level I'm also an advocate for making the deal. And I think that you have to understand motivations, you have to be able to read people and have empathy. I mean, I think I'm reasonably empathetic. I think, you know, my wife is more empathetic than I am, I'm sure. But I think I'm pretty good at. And I think I'm pretty good at reading people.
Terry Coyne [00:15:19]:
But I think if you are able to understand the motivations for people on transactions, I mean, I. I worked on a deal that I couldn't figure out for, I don't know, six months, and I finally got a meeting with all of the brothers and the sister, and I found out that there was a timing issue related to one of the sister's kids. It's very specific. But as soon as I realized that the entire deal hinged on a very small issue with one of the sister's kids, I isolated it and we figured it out, and it ended up working out for everybody. But I never would have been able to isolate the problem without getting in a room. And I could feel I'm in the room, like, there's something here that I just. I can't figure out why I'm not making this deal. I just kept asking and asking and asking, and then finally they said, well, like, okay, got it.
Terry Coyne [00:16:11]:
So there's the choke point. And, you know, I think you have to be. I ask a lot of questions. I mean, I ask a lot. Ever since I was a kid, my one. I had one brother tell me to not talk to him until I was 18, and I think I was 8 when he told me that. And I remember I was a little kid thinking, I wonder if he's serious. Like, am I not going to talk to my brother for 10 years? Because I think it was just so annoying.
Terry Coyne [00:16:30]:
Because I would ask a gazillion, and I still do. I will ask a gazillion questions. And I think that helps. I mean, I'm interested in people. I'm interested in knowing their story. And I think that plays to, you know, being a lawyer, I probably could do it. I don't think I have the patience to spend the time on the words. I'm much more interested in the people.
Jeffrey Stern [00:16:52]:
Maybe take us through one or two of. Of your favorite projects or examples that exemplify, you know, the stories of. Of people that you've worked with.
Terry Coyne [00:17:02]:
Yeah, there's so many, you know, I. I bought with Vic Digionimo and the Scannel Companies, the Chrysler stamping plant in Twinsburg. I think it was in 2008 or nine. And that was a time when everyone could have purchased this 2 million square foot building on 200 acres in Twinsburg at two full four way interchanges. Not one but two full. It was crazy. I mean this auto plant was built in the 50s and the infrastructure was built to take care of them and no one was interested in buying it. The economy was terrible.
Terry Coyne [00:17:37]:
So people were panicked. But all I saw was land that happen to have a building on it. But if you took the building off, what'd you have? You had 200 acres of the best land in Cleveland and teamed up with digeronomo and then teamed up with Skinnell Properties out of Indianapolis and it's become a huge success now there's 3 million square feet of property. There's so there's more square footage and there's more jobs than There was in 2007 at that park. But took the ability to see beyond what it was and, and also the economy was terrible. CMBS meltdown. It was a complete terrible recession. Some people called it the next Great Depression but you had to see beyond that and say okay, it's going to get better.
Terry Coyne [00:18:18]:
And you know, we looked around thinking this is crazy that there's nobody else here trying to buy it. And the. I think the Department of Treasury had taken over Chrysler and it was a mess. There were environmental problems. But that was a fun one because it's worked and we saw a huge opportunity. And around the same time I bought with Fred Geiss, Greg Geis and Jim Doyle land in midtown to build a speculative office building, which is the craziest idea. We built a spec office building in midtown Cleveland. But the number one determining factor to the rise in real estate values is employment growth.
Terry Coyne [00:18:54]:
And it didn't take a scientist to look to the east and realize the Cleveland Clinic was coming this way. Now this was 2008 so the market was still different. But we built a spec office building and totally empty. We landed Jumpstart, which we're so grateful for. We landed Cleveland Heart Lab and now there's six buildings that have been developed by Guy. There's a new hotel, there's the dealer tire headquarters, there's the Cleveland foundation across the street. And we say that we are a 15 year overnight success because now it, you know, we had a plan and it worked and it's been been great. So you had to have the vision to see it.
Terry Coyne [00:19:29]:
Who's building a spec office building in midtown? The city of Cleveland was a huge supporter. They gave us incentives but patience. My dad, you would always say you need time and money in real estate and most People don't have both, but if you do, it almost always works out because oftentimes people borrow too much. So if you don't borrow too much and you're patient, something really bad would have to happen for it not to go well. And those are two examples of two deals done in a bad time that worked out.
Jeffrey Stern [00:20:00]:
I mean, we're reaping right now the. The rewards of your vision and. And risk in that project, as, I mean, the Ohio fund that our office we reside in.
Terry Coyne [00:20:09]:
Yeah, what am I saying?
Jeffrey Stern [00:20:10]:
Yeah. In proximity to all that.
Terry Coyne [00:20:13]:
Yeah. So you're in the second building in the Ohio fund. Right. I mean, that's a great Cleveland foundation shows up, builds their building. You guys are in the next building. It's incredible what you guys. What everyone has done over there. I mean, Gallucci's was there first, I suppose, but I mean, there's a decent hotel, and, you know, there's more coming.
Terry Coyne [00:20:28]:
Arguably, it's the best office market in Ohio when you look at the lease rates. Not arguably it is, because I know the markets in Ohio on a per square foot basis. I don't know if anyone else gets more in rent than we do in our buildings, which is. If you said that in 2008, people would think that you were sleepwalking.
Jeffrey Stern [00:20:49]:
Certainly want to get your perspective on Ohio kind of writ large and the cities and their interrelationships, but we'll put a pin in that. I mean, both of those examples kind of prompted this in my mind, which is. I mean, when you're looking at a piece of land or an old building, what goes through your mind? You mentioned you kind of saw the land as the opportunity. But do you have a particular formula or philosophy for identifying what a site wants to be, so to speak? Or like, what its potential is? Is it more gut instinct? Or how is. How have you refined that over time?
Terry Coyne [00:21:26]:
Yeah, it's funny because my dad always said that if you need a spreadsheet for the deal, it's not his deal. And I thought, geez, you know, he's right, because real estate's not that hard. Right. Real estate is worth the rent you can charge. And whether that rent is farming, rent for corn, or office rent or industrial. I mean, that's all real estate is, is the income derived from the real estate. If it doesn't derive any income, it has no value or future income. So he used to always make it very simple on his parking lots.
Terry Coyne [00:21:55]:
He wanted a 10% return, and that was it. And if he, like, he looked at it so that was kind of the way I looked at it. If it, if it's complex, it's not for us. And I, I, maybe that's too flippant because some of these deals are pretty complex. But I guess I, I think it's like learning a language. At some point you become fluent, you become fluent in the language. And my daughter works with me, she's been here five years almost and I remember how she was when we began and how she is today. And she's fluent.
Terry Coyne [00:22:24]:
Right. My son in law just joined me and I can see him trying to learn the language and he will and you know, the light bulb. And so I think that as you just get more into it and more immersed in it, you just, there is a gut feel, because that gut feel is 30 years of analyzing stuff. And I mean, there's, you know, a million data points in my brain, a million experiences that go into looking. I mean, the build, when I see buildings, they're alive to me. Like, I can tell you a story about most buildings, I can tell you a story about most land sites. So they're alive and they speak to me. And that's probably how I do my underwriting.
Jeffrey Stern [00:23:01]:
You mentioned employment growth as the primary determinant ultimately of kind of larger real estate value. And I, I think that overlap in entrepreneurship, ultimately in real estate is a pretty interesting Venn diagram. And I know you as a broker have made investments in your tenants, which is also maybe not the most usual path and maybe comes only at a level of fluency when you can really speak the language, but just how you think about kind of the entrepreneurial nature of real estate.
Terry Coyne [00:23:41]:
I guess it depends what you do, but if you're a broker, you are by the very definition an entrepreneur and a risk taker. And if you own real estate, you're really a risk taker. I have had quite a, I told you this before. I've had angel investments, some of them. If you'd put the money on this table and burned it, I would have gotten more use out of my investments because they were just bad ideas. And I've invested in a lot of Cleveland angel startups. I'm a huge supporter of Cleveland and I don't regret making any of the investments because I feel it is, you know, I want the area to do well. But what's interesting is I've invested in tenants who are in my buildings and on every single one of those I have either broken even or made money, but I've never lost money.
Terry Coyne [00:24:19]:
So I somehow do better underwriting if you are my tenant, and I can't explain it, and because I've had some bad investments that were not tenants, and then I stopped and made them all tenants. You know, I only invest in tenants, and it's a great way to learn. I mean, Boxcast. Gordon Daly, I think you said he. He's been on your show, right? Chris Snyder, we talked about him. Vox Mobile. Brett Lindsay. Have you had Brad Wirz from Genome Oncology?
Jeffrey Stern [00:24:45]:
Not Brad, but. But Ian, his cto.
Terry Coyne [00:24:48]:
Yeah. See? Okay, got it. He's probably actually better. Yeah. All of those are tenants, all of those are friends. And unless you know something I don't, I think they. They're all okay or have been okay. Right.
Terry Coyne [00:24:59]:
So I also think it's fun. I mean, I like meeting people, I like making friends, and I enjoy it.
Jeffrey Stern [00:25:10]:
So I'll pull the pin off of Ohio, because I would be remiss, I think, to not ask about your opinions on someone who wants to see Cleveland succeed, just how you feel Cleveland is doing, where the opportunities are, and I think particularly in relationship to the work you've done. And Columbus, Toledo, Dayton, just having a more holistic, statewide perspective on where we have this tyranny of small differences between these places where they're actually structurally different and can play to different strengths. Just. Just your. Your perspective on having worked across the state and wanting to see the whole state, but also Cleveland do well.
Terry Coyne [00:25:48]:
Yeah. I mean, Toledo is a suburb of Detroit driven by Detroit jobs, automotive, 75 corridor. So I know we're all in one state, but we're all unique in different ways. You go down 75 past Lima to Dayton, then you get to the US Air Force. Not the headquarters, but kind of the headquarters. The leases there are primarily defense contractors. There is a distribution market because it's on 75, little slower, smaller buildings, but heavily influenced by automotive and the Air Force. Again, good market.
Terry Coyne [00:26:18]:
You go over Cincinnati. I mean, Cincinnati is a funny market because if you're on time for a meeting, you're late. Right. And it's a. It's a very. The market is heavily influenced by, I think, being the German culture of just being early. And everything they do is very precise. And it's similar to Cleveland in that people ask you the same question they ask in Cleveland first, which is, where'd you go to high school? They don't ask that in most big cities.
Terry Coyne [00:26:41]:
They don't ask that in Columbus. Right. But in Cleveland and Cincinnati, they say, where did you go to high school? Very parochial. South side's Kentucky north side is Less distribution, a little bit more wealthy. But I would say Cleveland and Cincinnati would be the two cities that would match up the most. Go back up north to Columbus. I mean, look, Columbus has got the second highest retention of college students in America, second only to Boston. And Boston's got more colleges.
Terry Coyne [00:27:05]:
And over the past 20 years they've done a great job. I think they graduate 15,000 kids per quarter. I think I have that right. And if you retain 42%, that's a lot of employees that you're retaining, which then grow up to be employers. And it's taken a while, but it works. And it's the hottest market in commercial real estate in America. Last year they absorbed five years worth of land in one year. And the industrial distribution absorption has been fantastic despite the continued building.
Terry Coyne [00:27:36]:
But it's harder in Columbus to buy because they're stopping incentives and the incentives and the. Oh, and the utilities. So the utilities, they're not extending and the incentives are going away. So while everyone looks at Columbus and sees tons of opportunity, it's getting tighter. Go up northeast to Youngstown. You know, Youngstown is famous because of a Bruce Springsteen song called Youngstown which is, you know, it's a good song, but it's very sad. I'm sure the chamber of commerce wishes he hadn't made that song. But Youngstown's actually kind of booming.
Terry Coyne [00:28:07]:
In Youngstown sense, they get crushed by automotive. But if you go to the downtown Youngstown we know because of parking numbers there are better than they were in 2019, which tells you that if parking rates are up and full, then the downtown is healthy. And Youngstown is heavily influenced by Pennsylvania, but it's its own little enclave. And the Youngstown business incubator has done a great job, as has the Youngstown state with Jim Trestle, who's a Ohio State coach and I'm a Notre Dame grad. So it's hard for me to give any credit to coach Trestle. And then you, then you pop over to Cleveland and Cleveland is heavily automotive, constrained by the northern lake and heavy 1960s manufacturing type buildings. So I know we're all in one state, but each one has its own unique characteristics and to lump them together, I think that might be artificial.
Jeffrey Stern [00:29:00]:
How do you think about the state collectively?
Terry Coyne [00:29:05]:
I think the state you would think about collectively from a governance perspective, right? I mean, we are a very red state. Our tax, our income tax has gone down, making us more competitive. We have no personal property tax with good infrastructure. I think that you've got a pro business government In Columbus that helps attract business. I mean, look, you got intel, you got Anduril, you've got even, you know, more coming. There's, there's a lot of good news. But if you look at it, a lot of it's happening in the center of Ohio. And that is probably where the rub comes from, is that it seems like Columbus is getting most of the success.
Terry Coyne [00:29:43]:
I mean, look, there's a lot of good stuff, things happening in Youngstown. I mean, Youngstown business incubator started off as a room by Jim Kossler, who I remember meeting with my dad 30 years ago with this crazy idea that he was going to start a business incubator. And you know what? He was right. And now that's in five buildings, turning technologies. There's a lot of good things happening in Youngstown and they work together to make it happen. And you know, Toledo, I like Toledo. It's steady. They've got good glass manufacturing and solar.
Terry Coyne [00:30:17]:
I think they're on some level, they're a suburb of Detroit, so they're, they're reasonably safe. But when I'm looking at the whole state, I think we're in very good shape competitively from the, from a national perspective because of our business kind of pro business policy. I better be right because I invested in the Ohio fund that you work at so.
Jeffrey Stern [00:30:38]:
Well. With that in mind, I will ask how you think about the difference between land and real estate.
Terry Coyne [00:30:47]:
Well, it's funny because there are some people who will not buy land. There are developers who want to build as fast as they can. And frankly, the greatest value creation is probably from the moment of buying the land to the moment of putting a shovel in. But the problem with land is that you don't know what the value is until one day you know what it's worth. And a building you can predict because you can build it, you can lease it out and then you can sell it or refinance it. But land could sit there for a very long time and a lot can happen around you and you can think to yourself, this is bad. I bought land with Greg and Fred Geiss and we sold it and we made decent money. And I remember thinking to the guy who bought it, sat on it for 10 years, and he sold it 10 years later and just crushed it.
Terry Coyne [00:31:36]:
And I thought to myself, I can't believe that we three guys who know what we're doing sold it to another developer who was just patient, didn't do, he literally didn't do anything. And then he sold it. And that whole time he didn't realize it and maybe he did. The value was going up at a great pace. But I think land takes tremendous patience. You have to buy it, right? Obviously. But it takes tremendous patience. And I think that's something that is hard to graph, hard to do an IRR study on.
Terry Coyne [00:32:04]:
Because I mean, you know, I bought a bunch of land in Columbus and it's two farms and the partners of mine, of which you are one, bought into the idea. No one's in a hurry, but you better not be in a hurry if you own 670 acres of farmland next to Rickenbacker Airport, Columbus, because it could sit there for a while. But patience, I guess, is the key.
Jeffrey Stern [00:32:31]:
What do you find yourself most excited about at this point in your career? And with that, how do you think about success and just like what motivates you?
Terry Coyne [00:32:42]:
Yeah, I love working with my daughter, my son in law and soon to be my youngest daughter. She's joining us in a short period of time, like a couple weeks. My daughter joined me four years ago and today we had a bunch of meetings and then we just went to lunch and came back and got on the podcast. Right. And it was kind of fun because we walked over to lunch, walked back. I really enjoy spending time with her, with my son in law and soon to be my other daughter and teaching them. I mean, I enjoy what I do with my clients and my deals. But there's a different level when your daughter is working with you.
Terry Coyne [00:33:16]:
I mean, she used to come to the office with her sisters and run around and they, they grew up going to buildings. So just like I did with my dad. So it's kind of fun. I mean it's kind of, you know, it's like learning a language at an early age. She did not realize what she knew until she showed up and then realized that she could speak the language better than most people years ahead of her. Well, of course she could. You know, when I was a kid, I worked as a valet parker. I worked at the old stadium flagging cars.
Terry Coyne [00:33:45]:
Right. I had to replace windows in the old stadium as a summer job, which was awful. And so, but you, I was always around it. And so that was a huge advantage to be able to understand the really, really basics of his business. And so it was, it's good to do the same with her.
Jeffrey Stern [00:34:03]:
That's awesome.
Terry Coyne [00:34:04]:
Yeah, it's fun. So I guess that's what motivates me. I, I want, I want to see her and my son in law and my other daughter grow and succeed. That, that is what motivates me at this point. It's not. I mean, I'm fine.
Jeffrey Stern [00:34:17]:
How do you think about risk?
Terry Coyne [00:34:20]:
I love risk. I love it. I love risk. I love. I love. I'm not sure if that's a good thing to be proud of, but I love. And I think you have to, like, I mean, you know, when I say that I don't know if it is risk, if you can quantify it. But, like, I, you know, when we built a stack building in Midtown, was I worried? Yeah.
Terry Coyne [00:34:38]:
And I was worried when we bought the Chrysler stamping plant. But I do like risk. I like it a lot. And I'm sure entrepreneurs that, you know, that I know it's an adventure, right? I mean, you're a little kid and you're running through the woods and you're looking for an adventure, and it's, you know, it's a risk, but it's, you know, it's woods that, you know, and your kids with your friend, you know, friends are with you. So it's not really that risky, but it's just business. I marvel at how business is not really that sophisticated. It's not that much different than playing in competitive sports. And sometimes the conversations are actually worse, like, dumber, Right.
Terry Coyne [00:35:14]:
Arguing over silly things. But I don't know. I like risk.
Jeffrey Stern [00:35:20]:
If you can quantify risk and it no longer is risk, what is that to you?
Terry Coyne [00:35:27]:
It's probably an adventure, right? That's what it would be. Because I understand the question. You're saying. Because you're saying it's not really risk, Right. If you can quantify the risk, why do people climb Mount Kilimanjaro? Right. I mean, they don't assume they're going to die, right? And I remember reading an article about the Sherpa, and the Sherpa is like, my job isn't to get them to Mount Kilimanjaro. My job is to get them back here. So it's not the up that he's worried about.
Terry Coyne [00:35:51]:
It's bringing them back down safely. But it's an. I guess I would say it's an adventure. And that's the fun thing about my job, is that we go on an adventure all of the time. Somebody calls, has a problem, oftentimes I'm helping people on their real estate, and it's a big part of their net worth. It's a big part of their savings or it's really, really meaningful to them. And that's a challenge. So I want to figure that out.
Terry Coyne [00:36:14]:
I want to make sure I do the best I can for my partners and to make sure that they get protected or, or whatever their goal is. Right. Typically their goal is to get as much money as they can or to save as much money as they can. But I like the, I like the adventure of it. You don't really know what tomorrow brings, but you kind of do. You're going up Mount Kilimanjaro, you're coming down the other side, you kind of know what you're doing. Not that what I do is Mount Kilimanjaro. I don't want confuse anyone with that.
Terry Coyne [00:36:41]:
But you're going hiking in, in the woods every day, and maybe the woods are a little bit different every day.
Jeffrey Stern [00:36:46]:
Where do you feel we are in this pendulum at the moment, swinging back and forth between remote work, return to office. Where do you feel it reaches an equilibrium beyond the Pandora's box that was unleashed with the pandemic and just people thinking differently, more creatively about work and density in places like cities and just kind of where the industry more large is moving.
Terry Coyne [00:37:16]:
Yeah, I can answer that question simply because the parking business is a business which tells you what your daily revenues are for a downtown, right. So if your revenues are up, that tells you more people are going to work. And in most cities, I mean Youngstown, Toledo, most cities, the revenues are above where they were for Covid, Chicago, New York, LA. So it tells you that most are back. Cleveland is still has a kind of Monday, Friday shoulder days that are slower. But I think you will see, I mean, look, you get promoted faster and you learn more if you are together. I also my first job, I didn't like the fact that I had to make 40 cold calls a day and I had to knock on 25 doors a week. But I did like the people I worked with, right.
Terry Coyne [00:37:59]:
And I sat next to Jay and Amy and some other folks and they became friends for life. So the job was difficult, but the people were fun. And you wouldn't have made those friends had I been hybrid that I've been at home. So I do think that if you're younger and you want to advance, you want to be. I mean, Aiden, my intern, is here every single day and he likes it. I can see outside my office right now a bunch of people talking. And there is. People are social animals.
Terry Coyne [00:38:26]:
I also think that you. That the AI is a threat. And if you want to compete, you need collaborative work environment, you need to work in teams. And I think the most effective way you can do it is in an office. And I'M all for downtown office buildings selling for $1 or selling for nothing because that gives the next investor in money to invest, make the buildings fun and enjoyable and bring people back to the downtowns of Ohio. I mean, there was a building in Columbus that just sold for $2 per square foot. I mean downtown Columbus, $2 per square foot. And they're, oh, that's terrible.
Terry Coyne [00:39:06]:
I think it's great, right, because the next guy in can now spend money because if you pay too much, you can't invest too much. Because I think if you want to compete in the future, you need office buildings that are amenitized, that are collaborative. And you wonder what does it do to industrial. I mean, I, I wish my dad had seen this because I just saw this video, but I got a video that showed me these little devices that valet park cars. Maybe you've seen this video, you could type it in on YouTube and see it incredibly efficient. Slide under the tires, kind of lift the car up, drive it around, put it down, come back and they're doing this in a very large garage. In some situations they're valet parking it onto like a lift and then lifting it up. So they're double stacking and I'm thinking, oh my God, they've just taken the.
Terry Coyne [00:39:52]:
I mean, I was a Valley Parker at the Barricelli Inn from, you know, 1986 to 1992. That was my job. I made a ton of money, I loved it. That's gone. I think that I'm not even sure what the question was because I think so much about the AI that I, I think it's return to office. I think getting next to people, working with people, going for a coffee is the, you know, it's the one thing AI can't do, right? AI can't build real relationships. Like I suppose they can build fake ones, but they can't build real ones. So I've told my team, if there is a meeting with a human being, you're going, don't worry about your emails, don't worry about any.
Terry Coyne [00:40:30]:
You, if there's a human being in the meeting, go and meet with them. Don't, don't talk to them on the phone.
Jeffrey Stern [00:40:37]:
With all the data numbers analysis that just resides in your head, what do you feel are some of the most interesting stats and trends at the moment as it pertains to Ohio real estate?
Terry Coyne [00:40:54]:
I suppose I can answer that question. I am most surprised at the growth of data centers in Columbus. I mean, data centers weren't a part of my lexicon. Two, three Years ago. I mean, the most valuable building in Cleveland is a Data center on 13th to 17th on Rockwell. You don't even know where it is. I mean like you've been by it, you haven't paid attention to it. But it's the most valuable building in the CBD if that's the central business district.
Terry Coyne [00:41:22]:
And I guess I am surprised at how Columbus has surged almost to the top tier for data centers in the country in what appears to be a two year timeframe. I'm amazed by that.
Jeffrey Stern [00:41:37]:
What do you think is required for that?
Terry Coyne [00:41:42]:
Well, power was helpful and they had legislation that just changed that. Now we can. Ohio sits on a ton of natural gas and the legislature did a great job of House Bill 15 passing it to allow behind the meter gas generation. So now you can go generate your own electricity from gas or wind or solar. You can't sell it, but you can use it yourself. So if you're a Facebook, you can now go buy 700 acres and generate your own electricity and use it for yourself. Which we're one of the few states that has that. And that, that power solution has been great.
Terry Coyne [00:42:13]:
We also had the fiber laid in Columbus by a few of the hyperscalers already. And once the fiber was laid, activity begets activity and more come. So I think they had a good, good location and they had a good origin story that they had the, I mean, the abundance of power at the time, you know, now that's an issue. But they got lucky with the fiber. If you had asked me, what's a trend in the future that worries you or doesn't worry you? I think that no one is paying attention to the fact that there is a movement in Ohio to get rid of real estate taxes. And I shouldn't be so flippant by saying no one but Dave Yost, Secretary, no Attorney General approved the right for the people to put it on the ballot once they got 475,000 signatures. And the language for the constitutional amendment is so simple and elegant and it addresses what most people think in Ohio is that our real estate taxes have gone up too much too fast. And what has happened? And then the governor vetoed in what was.
Terry Coyne [00:43:22]:
I saw an article that called it Veto Mageddon rather than Armageddon Vetomageddon. And he got, he vetoed some of the things that would have given relief to Ohio taxpayers on their real estate taxes. And real estate taxes make up 18 to 20 billion dollars of the Ohio budget. And I, I mean, look, it's going to be great for me Right. You get rid of real estate taxes, you're going to increase my values because I don't have to pay real estate tax. I mean, that's amazing. I think it's going to pass. And everyone that I've talked to thinks it's going to pass.
Terry Coyne [00:43:53]:
And I've, I've read stuff online. Oh, the counties and the cities are going to fight it. I get it. But if someone said, you do not have to pay real estate taxes ever again, how do you think they're going to vote? And that's a problem, because how do you make up $18 billion? I don't know. And selfishly, it's great for me. I don't know if it's great for the state.
Jeffrey Stern [00:44:17]:
Well, in the spirit of that, one of the ideas that we're trying to explore in these conversations is how to collectively raise the ambition of Ohio. And if you were kind of the real estate czar, if you will, what are you prescribing that you think materially, you know, moves the needle for, For Ohio?
Terry Coyne [00:44:42]:
I. Look, I think there's a lot. I mean, I know a lot of people who are in small business who are very, very ambitious. And what would move the needle? I don't know. I mean, you know, on the government side, faster permits. I've made myself famous on LinkedIn by complaining about permits. But that, but those are big city issues. Smaller cities take care of that pretty quickly.
Terry Coyne [00:45:05]:
The infrastructure's good, you know, I think. And, you know, Mark Kwame was the one who really drove this home to me years ago. There's so much money in Silicon Valley that you can make mistakes and they'll do it again and make a mistake and do it again. Whereas here, it's almost culturally, you don't get the chance to fail twice. Whereas in culturally, in Silicon Valley, failing twice is. I don't know. So what? Right. And maybe that's because there's so much access to capital.
Terry Coyne [00:45:35]:
I don't know. I mean, the stuff. I know a lot of people who've been very successful in business in Ohio, so the ambition is there. And now with things like the Ohio Fund and Jumpstart and north coast, that's oxygen that fuels a fire. And maybe that's the piece that's missing is that if there's more oxygen, then, you know, so if you make a mistake, you just start over. And maybe it's. Maybe it's cash, because, I mean, I, I don't know. I know a lot of guys who've taken a lot of risk and I've invested in some deals that have done well with smart people.
Terry Coyne [00:46:07]:
But you know, why does Silicon Valley do so well? Why is there such a tech presence in New York now? There's denser populations, but I mean, look at Youngstown. I mean the Youngstown business incubator. If you shouldn't exist, it's against all conventional wisdom. And yet not only does it exist, but it grows. So the ambition is clearly there and when given the opportunity, people take it. I'm from Ohio, I love Ohio. And I think we're on the right path.
Jeffrey Stern [00:46:40]:
Certainly share that sentiment.
Terry Coyne [00:46:42]:
Yeah, yeah, you do. You're with the Ohio Fund, right?
Jeffrey Stern [00:46:46]:
Right. Well, I'll ask almost an unfair question. It's kind of a meta question then. But is there something that you wish I had asked about that you think would be particularly important in reflection on your journey and the work that you do that we haven't talked about yet?
Terry Coyne [00:47:06]:
I guess if there was an insight that the 55 year old balding Terry probably could have shared with a younger Terry is that inflation is your best friend if you're in real estate, and it may not be your best friend if you're in other industries. But people buy gold, right? People buy raw materials, they buy commodities. And I'm in the commodity business. What's a building but just an organized set of commodities? And if you're buying your commodity in 2000 and still own it, you have made money simply because of inflation. And I think that's a concept that I, I mean I, I knew it, I guess intuitively because of my dad, but not really. And I'm, I'm amazed at how so many of the deals that I've worked on have worked out solely because of time and that it's a patient game. I do own stocks, but I can't look. But real estate, if you make a mistake, you can't just dump it.
Terry Coyne [00:48:07]:
And if you do, you're going to get killed. But it forces discipline on you because it's a very illiquid asset. And that illiquidity forces you to be thoughtful unless you borrow too much. I mean, if you borrow too much. I remember being in a meeting with my dad and a guy asked my dad for a loan on a property and he kept quoting the Bible, saying that every seven years the Bible says you should pay back your debts. And my dad stood up in the meeting and I thought it was so rude at the time, but he was completely right. He said, when a man speaks of God, make him pay cash, because dad felt give Unto Caesar what is Caesar? Right. Give unto God what is God's.
Terry Coyne [00:48:45]:
And we're not here. This isn't church. It's real estate. And the guy had borrowed too much money and he needed someone to get him out of that problem. And we left because, you know, during COVID my father and I were net buyers of parking lots. So he and I bought parking lots during COVID No one was buying parking lots during COVID Well, you know, we had the money and no debt. So I guess I would say that if you have the time and you're patient and you don't over leverage, it's a very good business.
Jeffrey Stern [00:49:15]:
Do you think you can cultivate patience?
Terry Coyne [00:49:18]:
I don't know. I mean, I don't have any patience. I mean. Right. So the patience that. Well, yeah, I mean, I guess you could cultivate patience, right? Go into an industry that forces patience. So I went into an illiquid slow moving business and I don't think that I. I don't know how I would do if I were in a fast moving.
Terry Coyne [00:49:38]:
If I. If I traded equities. Right. I don't know, I would worry. But. So you could cultivate it by going into real estate because it. It forces you to be disciplined with patience. If not, you get crushed.
Jeffrey Stern [00:49:51]:
Well, Terry, I. I just want to thank you for coming on, sharing a little bit more about your story. Reflections on. On the who. I have a closing question for you, which is kind of a fun one, but just for hidden gem in Cleveland. Something other folks should know about that maybe they don't. Boy, I'm sure you just have to be full of hidden gems in Cleveland.
Terry Coyne [00:50:19]:
I mean, I can give you a ton. I mean, you know the Huntington bank lobby, but that's locked right now. Largest bank lobby in America. Hidden gem. I mean, I love the industrial side. You know, I. I don't. There was a har.
Terry Coyne [00:50:36]:
There's a chemical plant during World War II that was building some chemical for the army. And they called the military and said, we have to stop making this chemical because it's degrading the bridge above us. And they said, keep making the chemical, we will move the bridge. And they moved the bridge. And that bridge still exists today over on the industrial side of the flats. You'd never. I mean, they would never know the backstory to that. But.
Terry Coyne [00:51:06]:
And that site actually is being. That site's actually finally being cleaned up today. I think it had. I think I'm right about this. I think it made mustard gas. Herwick Harwick Chemical. I don't know. There's so many good stories.
Terry Coyne [00:51:19]:
I mean, I taught my daughter how to drive in the Chrysler stamping plant when it was up. And we drove inside of this enormous building in a car. And I remember, like, how funny it is that I'm, and she was like 14, like she should never have been driving, but we were in this humongous building and I was teaching her how to drive with nobody around. I had the keys and I owned it with some partners. Right. That was kind of fun. Yeah, we had golf cart races. I mean, I think there's so many hidden gems in, in Cleveland, if I had to pick.
Terry Coyne [00:51:46]:
You know, I love if you ever go down Lakeside. Probably don't go down Lakeside, but there's some very cool buildings going down Lakeside toward East 55th. Those are industrial from the 1930s and 40s. And sometimes I look at those and wonder what was this place like at 3 o' clock in 1935 when all of the people came out and went home or went to the bar or whatever they did. You could almost hear the echoes of the people who used to work there in these big hulking structures that are still there.
Jeffrey Stern [00:52:14]:
Yeah, well, those are excellent hidden gems. I, I, I, I do find myself on Lakeside sometimes and I, I, yeah.
Terry Coyne [00:52:23]:
I mean, it's not really that as well. Yeah.
Jeffrey Stern [00:52:24]:
I mean, because you, they're incredible structures.
Terry Coyne [00:52:28]:
Incredible. And, and you think what was made there and how many people used to work there and obviously the world's changed, but it's just kind of cool to see and I don't know, I like those, there's, there's a really, if you, if you really want a hidden gem, go and drive by Gateway Warehouse on Hamilton. And the Gateway Warehouse, you can't, you can't go in. But the Gateway Warehouse on Hamilton and I will look up the actual, I'm going to guess it's in the 40s. It, if you look at it, you think to yourself, what was in this building? It is, it looks like a train station that was built in Europe. And of course, my Internet is slow, but if you, if you type in Gateway Warehouse, don't go in and get me in trouble, just drive by it. And it is a beautiful structure that looks like it belongs as a train station in Europe.
Jeffrey Stern [00:53:18]:
We'll check it out for sure. Well, Terry, if, if folks had anything they wanted to follow up with you about, where are you pointing them on the interwebs?
Terry Coyne [00:53:31]:
I mean, you can find me on LinkedIn where I probably post too much about my frustrations with the City of Cleveland permits. But I mean, look, if you can't go and find me, then please tell me because I advertise a lot. But terrycoin.com is my website.
Jeffrey Stern [00:53:44]:
Perfect.
Terry Coyne [00:53:45]:
I'm not hard to find.
Jeffrey Stern [00:53:47]:
Well, thank you again Terry. Really appreciate it.
Terry Coyne [00:53:49]:
Yep, you got it. Thanks for your time.
Jeffrey Stern [00:53:50]:
Thank you for tuning in to the Ohio Fund Report. If you enjoyed this podcast, we'd love for you to leave a review on your favorite platform and subscribe to stay updated on all future episodes. You can subscribe via Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or directly on our website at TheOhioFund.com the information shared on this podcast is for informational purposes only and does not constitute investment advice, an offer to sell, or a solicitation of an offer to buy any security. Past performance is not indicative of future results. The views and opinions expressed by our guests are solely their own and do not necessarily represent those of the Ohio Fund. A guest's participation in this podcast does not imply an endorsement or an investment recommendation by the Ohio Fund. This podcast may include conversations with leadership of a company in which the Ohio Fund or its affiliated funds have an investment and as such, financial interest in the success of this company and there may be a conflict of interest in presenting information about the company and its performance. Any forward looking statements or projections discussed during this episode are based on current expectations, assumptions and estimates.
Jeffrey Stern [00:55:03]:
Actual outcomes may differ materially due to a variety of risks, uncertainties and other factors. Listeners should consult their own legal, tax and financial advisors before making any investment decisions. For more information about the Ohio Fund, including our form, adv, other regulatory filings and additional conversations, please visit theohiofund.com.