#219: Dale Wollschleger (ExactCare) — From Pharmacist to Building a Billion-Dollar Pharmacy Care Company

Dale Wollschleger [00:00:00]:
Through scale, through whatever it may be, the types of patients you're talking to, negotiating with whoever. You live and learn a lot. But probably one of the biggest things is I know a lot of people say this, but it's so true. Hire the right people, right? Hire the people that have had that experience and then you teach them what you've learned and put it together with what they've learned. And you could do some really big things. And we did that with done that quite a bit and we're continuing to do that too, which is hiring some great folks. But that would be probably one of the bigger ones hiring, right hello everyone.

Jeffrey Stern [00:00:35]:
I am Jeffrey Stern, your host of today's Ohio Fund Report with Dale Woeschligger, founder and former CEO of the Cleveland based xactcare Pharmacy. This conversation with Dale dives into the unlikely journey of a pharmacist turned entrepreneur who started in the back of a small Cleveland pharmacy and built a billion dollar organization serving patients across the country. Xactcare's meteoric growth from inception to multi hundred million dollar business in under a decade has spurred its recognition multiple times over as an Inc. 5000 fastest growing company, Top Workplace by the Plain Dealer and correspondingly for Dale, an Ernst and Young Entrepreneur of the Year. Ultimately, Dale's remarkable journey stems from an observation that he himself had as a pharmacist, that pharmacists have the opportunity to be more integral players in clinical care and that their responsibility does not end when the patient leaves the pharmacy. Many patients could live healthier, more independent lives if only they took the right medications at the right times. In our conversation, Dale shares how he navigated the multiple chapters of scaling a.

Jeffrey Stern [00:01:49]:
Billion dollar healthcare business, bringing in private.

Jeffrey Stern [00:01:52]:
Equity and outside capital, evolving his own leadership, balancing high growth expectations with a focus on patient outcomes, culture, family and a whole lot more. So please enjoy this wonderful conversation with Dale Wohlsugar Lave the Land is brought to you and is proudly sponsored by Roundstone Insurance, headquartered in Rocky River, Ohio. Roundstone shares Lay of the Land's same passion for bold ideas in lasting impact from our community's entrepreneurs, innovators and leaders. Since 2005, Brownstone has pioneered a self funded captive health insurance model that delivers robust savings for small and medium sized businesses. They are part of the solution to.

Jeffrey Stern [00:02:33]:
Rising healthcare costs, helping employers offer affordable, high quality care while driving job creation.

Jeffrey Stern [00:02:38]:
And economic growth throughout Northeast Ohio. Like many of the voices featured on Lay of the Land, including Roundstone's founder and CEO Mike Schroeder, Roundstone believes entrepreneurship, innovation and community to be the cornerstones of progress. To learn more about how Roundstone is transforming employee health benefits by empowering employers to save thousands in per employee per year healthcare costs, please visit roundstoneinsurance.com Roundstone Insurance built for entrepreneurs, Backed by innovation Committed to Cleveland hello everyone and welcome.

Disclaimer [00:03:12]:
To the Ohio Fund Report, a show dedicated to raising the collective ambition of Ohio. Before we dive in, just a quick note, this podcast is for informational purposes only. Nothing you hear today should be taken as investment advice, a recommendation, or an offer to buy or sell any securities. The views expressed by our guest are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of the Ohio Fund or any of its affiliates. The Ohio Fund has not compensated the guest for their participation in this podcast. However, the guest may be a limited partner in one or more private investment funds managed by the Ohio Fund and their investment experience may differ from that of other investors. Any discussions regarding past performance or investment experience are not indicative of future results and should not be relied upon as such. Any forward looking statements you hear today are based on current expectations and may change.

Disclaimer [00:03:51]:
Please do your own research and consult with your advisors before making any investment decisions.

Jeffrey Stern [00:03:55]:
I always think about where the best place to start these conversations is and in the spirit of them, I think a lot about this idea of someone's life's work. You know, this idea which I've heard kind of best articulated as the quest you've been on your whole life to build something of value for others that is kind of a unique expression of who you are. And from the outside looking in, to me it feels truly you are on this unique path. I'm not sure how many people on.

Jeffrey Stern [00:04:27]:
The planet can speak to a lived.

Jeffrey Stern [00:04:30]:
Experience of pharmacist turned entrepreneur who's built a billion dollar organization here in Cleveland. And so I'd kind of love to just start there with how you think about your journey and the framing of a life's work.

Dale Wollschleger [00:04:44]:
It's a great question. You know, it's, it's interesting. So I, I'll just set the stage a little bit. So I have a wife and three beautiful kids. My, my boys are, I have twin boys that are going to be juniors in high school. My daughter's going to be in eighth grade and right now we're talking about college and when does somebody know what they want to do in life?

Dale Wollschleger [00:05:06]:
Right.

Dale Wollschleger [00:05:07]:
And Right. My kids have no clue.

Dale Wollschleger [00:05:09]:
Right.

Dale Wollschleger [00:05:09]:
What they want to do. Yeah. And some do. I mean every once in a while you'll get someone says yeah, I want to be an Architect. And that's what I want to do. Or, or I want to follow in my, you know, parents footsteps, whatever they may do. So anyway, so I was the exact same way. I had no idea what I want to do.

Dale Wollschleger [00:05:24]:
I didn't really honestly think about it in high school. So when it was that time in high school where I was trying to figure out where I was going to go.

Jeffrey Stern [00:05:36]:
I.

Dale Wollschleger [00:05:37]:
It was funny, you know, I thought, okay, should I go to business school? I don't know. I was kind of. I was the type of kid that was. I just kind of thought I knew a lot by my, you know, for myself. So I was like, why would I go to business school? I know how to do that. Like, in my head. I don't know why I was like that, but. And so my father's a pharmacist.

Dale Wollschleger [00:05:58]:
So I said, all right, I'll go to pharmacy school. And truth be told, I did not do great in high school, grades wise. I just was. All I cared about was football, working out and just having fun with friends. Just full, full transparency there. But then I, you know, light bulb went off a little bit when I went to college. So I decided to go to pharmacy school. And so I went through pharmacy school and I actually transferred schools.

Dale Wollschleger [00:06:22]:
I went to University of Toledo and then I went to Ohio Northern into the pharmacy program. And one of the things that I did, and people think it's funny, and they were, you know, as we were studying and going through classes and all that stuff, I was day trading in the middle of classes. I was, you know, I thought I was brilliant at the time. I probably lost a ton doing it, but, but, you know, I just always had that kind of, hey, I want to figure it out. I could do it myself. And. But it was. So I graduated pharmacy school and a great little story my dad actually enjoys telling.

Dale Wollschleger [00:06:55]:
It's kind of funny. So my dad is a pharmacist. He owned a pharmacy. He owned. He was one of the first to bring infusion IVs into the home. So that was a big deal in the 80s. So he did that. And I used to work for him.

Dale Wollschleger [00:07:12]:
And he also had a pharmacy that did pharmaceuticals for nursing homes and that type of thing. So I'd make deliveries, I'd work for him. And as I was going through pharmacy school, through internship, through summers where I wanted to work, I said, dad, I want to get paid more. You're not paying me enough. And he said, well, that's what I pay. That's it. Sorry. If you want to get paid more.

Dale Wollschleger [00:07:32]:
Go find something else. So I literally found another job with sort of a competitor. And it's a small world a little bit. So the main guy that ran it called my dad and he says, hey, your son's trying to get a job with me. And he's like, hey, if you want to pay him more, great. So he did. He literally doubled what my dad was paying me. So my dad talks about.

Dale Wollschleger [00:07:50]:
So I left. I left my dad's, you know, working for a tech and all that stuff, and I went and worked for actually a company called Medic Pharmacy, which used to be a regional chain in Cleveland. So I did that. And I graduated from pharmacy school, did a couple other entrepreneurial things during. I started a power washing company, just power washing, you know, decks and driveways and all that fun stuff. And then when I graduated, I worked for Medic Pharmacy as a pharmacist. And I went around to all their stores and tried to help them build their stores up. I didn't want to really work in one store.

Dale Wollschleger [00:08:29]:
I had an idea there to. At the time, there was great reimbursement and great need for. It's called albuterol and iotropium bromide, which helped with asthma, COPD breathing, that type of thing. And it was a big buzz back then. So I put up this whole plan to take Medic Pharmacy to the next level with this. And they loved the idea, said, go do it. But honestly, they didn't want to put a contract together, pay me for it. They said, go do it and then we'll figure it out.

Dale Wollschleger [00:08:59]:
And I said, well, that's not really my style. So I left the company and I went to work for a small, tiny pharmacy inside Lutheran Hospital, which is in basically downtown Cleveland near the west side Market. And I worked for this. This company owned it, that. That owned a durable medical equipment company. So they also had this pharmacy on the side. Their durable medical equipment company was doing pretty well, but they needed a pharmacist. And I said, I'll come work for you, but I need to buy this thing within three years.

Dale Wollschleger [00:09:28]:
That was just kind of what I wanted to do. And they're like, perfect, we'll sell it in three years. So I started working there, and I grew it pretty fast. And I grew it 100% in the first year. And I'm like, all right, I'm shooting myself in the foot, right? The value is going up. So I ended up buying it about a year and a half after. So that was 2004. ISH graduated pharmacy school in about 2001.

Dale Wollschleger [00:09:52]:
And then I, once I bought it, I was running the pharmacy, growing it, and I bought another pharmacy. I started a, a durable medical equipment company myself. So I had those and I'm like, all right, what I want to do. I knew I wanted to keep growing, so I started growing those. And then I'm like, all right, that's not going to work. I don't think that's. So I ended up selling both of those companies, but I still had Lutheran Family Pharmacy. And then in 2009 is really when I started Exact Care.

Dale Wollschleger [00:10:23]:
And I started Exact Care out of the back of Lutheran Family Pharmacy. Literally right out of the back. And the concept back then for me was I saw a need, right? I saw, I started working with mental health patients and I saw this just need that they not only needed something to help them take their medication, but they needed a pharmacist to interact with them to understand why they're not taking it or interactions or they're seeing multiple doctors and how to handle all that stuff. So I came up with a program that I just built from scratch, very simple program to help them, remind them to take the medications, remind caregivers of things. And then I'm like, all right, we need something else. So they, we needed some type of packaging. So I would multi dose pack medications in these little bubble packs by hand. I literally took, if they're on 15 meds, I would just manually put them in these bubbles and close them up, seal them up with heat seals and stuff.

Dale Wollschleger [00:11:23]:
And it was working, it was great. And these patients were getting better. So then I'm like, all right, I need something else to be able to scale this. So that's when I found some automation, this multi dose packing automation. At the time there were some of them in like hospital systems, sort of, they used them, but there was nothing at scale, nothing that you can do it through, like, you know, through one, one at a time, one patient at a time, that type of thing. So I bought this machine and I had to tweak the pharmacy program. Nothing off the shelf you can kind of buy and kind of put together. So I had to build everything from scratch.

Dale Wollschleger [00:11:59]:
So at that point we took that and we really started working with the mental health patients. And then from there it's like, wow, it's not just that market. So we started working with HIV patients. Then we just started working with every patient that had multiple medication that need these services. We just saw such a big need.

Jeffrey Stern [00:12:19]:
Well, I'll throw a personal anecdote in there. I mean, this idea. So my dad has multiple sclerosis since before I was born. And with it comes, truly, this unbelievable cocktail assortment of different medications that he has to take multiple times a day. And if it. Without them, he's basically rendered incapable. And I mean, truly, the only way he's been able to manage that litany of medications is because my mom, like, very diligently has to take one day a month to organize 30 days worth of his pills so that he doesn't miss anything.

Dale Wollschleger [00:12:56]:
Yeah, yeah. So, you know, I mean, it's. Every single person I'm telling you that I talk to and tell the story to, they always have somebody that has, you know, a story that they would need these services, or they. Or they have someone, a caregiver or family member that really has to help them. The problem is, your mom probably does a phenomenal job and she understands it and she does it, but a lot of people don't have that right. Or it becomes, you know, it's tough to do that every month or every week or whenever they feel. And if you're not in a background of healthcare, sometimes you don't know what's going on or what, you know. So one of the things we actually did from the start, too, is we actually went into the patient's homes.

Dale Wollschleger [00:13:35]:
So to the point of your dad, right, we would go into the home and we had what's called clinical liaisons go in the home and said, all right, show me all your medications. Give me all your medications. Over the counter medications, supplements, whatever you have, went through it all. We had a program that we. Well, actually back then, we do it by hand, write it down, and then bring it back to the pharmacist. But eventually we build programs to do all this. And then.

Jeffrey Stern [00:13:58]:
Was that a nod of inspiration to your dad and kind of the in home, Ivan?

Dale Wollschleger [00:14:03]:
You know, it's funny. No, I mean, there was nothing really there that. I mean, it just. Not really. I mean, my dad helped me a ton throughout, like, just throwing things off him. And from whether it's growth or just whether it's employee issues or building whatever, you know, he helped me a ton. But the actual IVs in the home, to this in the home, it just kind of. It's funny how it kind of worked out like that, but.

Dale Wollschleger [00:14:27]:
No, it really has anything like that. But when we're in the homes, you know, what we find is a ton of, like, medications they shouldn't be on or old medications or what they're doing. They're splitting Pills because they can't afford it, or there are multiple doctors that they don't know who's taking what. So we collect all that data of all the medications, everything they're on insurance, blah, blah, blah. We bring it back, we brought it back in house and then we let all the prescribers know all the medications everybody's taking. We found so many problems. I mean literally 95% of the time we find issues with medications, which is kind of crazy, but it's understandable too. So the, once we get that all cleared up, then we actually get the final product and that's when we did a lot with the multi dose packaging of medications and, and then month over month we check with the patients, check with the doctors, make sure everything's right and, and then continue with that.

Dale Wollschleger [00:15:21]:
And you know, I'll stop there but you know, that's, we just have continued to grow. That's, but that's basically how we started it. And we started it in Northeast Ohio in Cleveland and then just grew it from there. So I'll, I'll stop there for a second or I can keep going on the journey of how we kept growing, but I'll let you tell.

Jeffrey Stern [00:15:39]:
Well, I'd love to introduce maybe some context to the market that you're operating in. Just, and really, you know, the role that you see exact care playing within it, particularly in that kind of early chapter of the business as it was still getting started. And you're trying to figure out what the, the right model even is. Just like, how did this work historically? How did it get to a point where that percentage of medication is messed up for people? Just, you know, your, your observations of where the market was.

Dale Wollschleger [00:16:08]:
Well, at the time, I mean the problem was people. I always said it's like people, patients, however you look at it, they, they, they went to a pharmacy, they didn't have a pharmacy, right? So they'd go to Walgreens, cvs, medic, wherever it was and they would just go there to pick up their medications. And yeah, you can ask the pharmacist questions that great, that's great and everything. But you think about it, you have a general practitioner, you have a cardiologist if you have heart problems, right? Endocrinologist, podiatrist, a dentist, right? You have all these specialists, but you just go to a pharmacy, you really don't have a pharmacist. And especially at that time, it was like that was the biggest need for patients that are on multiple medications to find drug interactions or deal with whatever you had to deal with. With prescribers or whatever. So that was kind of that concept back then of like, all right, I have to. And, you know, take care of the complex patients.

Dale Wollschleger [00:17:01]:
Not for a patient that's on an antibiotic here and there, one or two medications that, I mean, you know, you could figure that out, no problem. But it's really for the patients on multiple medications. So that's really. There wasn't really anything out at the time, you know, at all. Or like, just family members, like. Like you explained, or you have to be put into a nursing home or assisted living home, and then you have the caregivers to help with that kind of stuff. But even at that time, even pharmacists interaction, you know, it's definitely more prevalent now where pharmacists are interacting with patients when they're discharged from hospitals or this or that. But at the time, there really wasn't much at all of that.

Dale Wollschleger [00:17:39]:
So that's kind of where it was. And then. And then at the time, we're like, okay, we're growing. This is great. But how do we. How do I grow this? Build it right? And that's what I want to do. So I actually had a colleague that I went to school with, and I said, his name is Larry Dakaria. And I said, larry.

Dale Wollschleger [00:17:59]:
I said, let's. Let's expand this un. He's like, yeah, let's do it. And he lived in Jersey, New Jersey. So we bought a little pharmacy in Farmingdale, New Jersey, called Farmingdale Pharmacy, Little Hometown Pharmacy started. He ran that, and then we started another exact care out of the back of that. And it worked, and we grew that. So then at that point, we're like, all right, this is really working.

Dale Wollschleger [00:18:26]:
So at that point, I hired a cfo, and he really had, you know, the vision to help me. His name is Marty Butler. He had the vision to help me understand really, the private equity world at the time. Like, yeah, we can bring private equity in and we can help grow that. So I had a minority investment of private equity that came in. We had a lot of folks at the time that really were interested in it, but we narrowed it down to one actually private equity firm in Cleveland. And I was between a lot of other ones, but I'm like, you know what? I love the. The roots of Cleveland.

Dale Wollschleger [00:19:00]:
So prime is capital invested first with us. And it was great. It really added credibility to what we were doing by going through that process. I didn't know what I was doing then. I mean, really. I mean, it's Just funny how you just kind of figure it out. But going through that process, I had no clue what I was doing, but figured it out. And we stayed with them for two, three years, maybe three years, I believe.

Dale Wollschleger [00:19:26]:
And we just grew. I mean, we were growing. We put clinical liaisons all over the place. We got licensure in all states. We built automation, just a lot more technology, and we just kept growing and hiring phenomenal employees to help with that. I think at that time, I hired gentleman by the name of Tony Casanova, our cio. He helped. Actually, his wife worked for us, and she was one of the clinical liaisons that would go into these homes and write everything down.

Dale Wollschleger [00:19:59]:
And he would go home, or she would go home at night, and he's like, what are you doing? Why would you write all this down? I could put a program together in two seconds. So I met with him and I ended up hiring him. And still today he's our CIO that runs all of our IT and everything and really built the majority of everything that we run on, which was kind of cool.

Dale Wollschleger [00:20:19]:
Yeah.

Jeffrey Stern [00:20:20]:
In the evolution of. Of exact care from, you know, something that you're just kind of entrepreneurially figuring out as you go to bringing in your first kind of outside capital and partners with Primus, you know, you mentioned having not had that kind of experience before. Like, what did you take with you as the biggest learnings from that evolution.

Jeffrey Stern [00:20:41]:
Of the business at that point?

Dale Wollschleger [00:20:43]:
So, well, I mean, just in general, people would tell me horror stories of don't let private equity in. And, you know, they're all, you know, they're going to take over and, you.

Jeffrey Stern [00:20:52]:
Know, they were extract value.

Dale Wollschleger [00:20:55]:
It's.

Jeffrey Stern [00:20:55]:
It's a. It's a trope of the industry.

Dale Wollschleger [00:20:57]:
But I'll be honest, it's like you learn and, you know, they just. If you just bring smart people around you, I mean, they had a lot of smart people working for them at Primus. Helped out and just help us think about it a different way and push us a different way. Helped us formalize a board. I had a. A mentor, actually, back from my medic days. I worked for. His name is Mike Bukach.

Dale Wollschleger [00:21:21]:
And he, I mean, really helped me through a lot of this, a lot of the process back in the day. And he ended up coming full circle. I used to work for him and now he was on our board, which was really cool. I mean, he has tons of experience in the pharmacy healthcare world, which was really beneficial to the business and myself. I mean, throwing things off him personally or, you Know, business or whatever. So it was great to have him. But yeah, so with, with Primus we were, I don't want to say outgrowing them, but we were growing pretty fast and you know, it was, it was time where within the investment that they did really well and, and that was great, but I wanted to really get another private equity a little bit bigger, a little bit more healthcare, healthcare focused. So that's when we went out and we did another.

Dale Wollschleger [00:22:13]:
Hired a banker. This time we actually hired a banker. Last time we did it ourselves, which is live and learn. And then we ended up with Nautic Partners, which has been a great, great ride. Just brilliant people there, well liked, well known in healthcare, doing some phenomenal things. Not just with xactcare and the companies that we've built off of xactcare and, and have grown, but they're doing some amazing things. But the growth of just going from kind of by myself as the pharmacist behind the counter all the way through CEO and you know, basically doing everything from IT to whatever. I mean it was huge learning curves and everything.

Dale Wollschleger [00:22:57]:
But, you know, you just have to kind of figure things out as you go and that's what we did. And then hire great people to help you out. And yeah, we're a pretty large organization today.

Dale Wollschleger [00:23:08]:
Yeah.

Jeffrey Stern [00:23:09]:
How would you describe the organization today?

Dale Wollschleger [00:23:12]:
Well, so I am, I stepped away as CEO about two and a half years ago. So I'm on the board of IT and it's running great. We bought a few other companies, put them together and it's like anything you live and learn with everything you do. We had a concept with Nautic to, to buy three companies, Specialty Pharmacy Infusion and with Xactor, put them all together. And as we were growing, as we were starting to put together, well, one of the pharmacies, Specialty Pharmacy, just started growing so well and someone really wanted that piece of it. So we ended up selling that and that was a great thing. So then we had these other two pieces which we were building specialty infusion pharmacies in hospitals and managing it for them. So we separated Exact Care and that and then we sold part of that off.

Dale Wollschleger [00:24:02]:
So now we kind of formed another company. And then with Exact Care, we were interested in continuing to grow that and looking for other pieces, parts. So we actually, we bought Tabula Rasa and put Tabula Rasa, which is a pace organization similar to what Exact Care does, but very different at the same time of but. But same concept. So we really thought this would work. So that's when we did that and then we rebranded that as a new health. So that's what is, is there today. It's called a new health still exact care pharmacy underneath that as the pharmacy part of it.

Dale Wollschleger [00:24:40]:
And we're kind of still building that and putting that together and that's going really well. And a gentleman by the name of Brian Adams is, is running all that and he's doing a great job as we, as we continue to grow. But through all this, carepath was this company. We were thinking of putting them all together. And a brilliant guy by the name of John Figueroa, very well known in the industry, ran all that and built all that. And he did a great job as we were going. And now Bryan Adams has taken over and doing some great things.

Dale Wollschleger [00:25:14]:
Yeah.

Jeffrey Stern [00:25:14]:
So how would you paint the broader aspiration and vision of, of what the organization is trying to be the best at today?

Dale Wollschleger [00:25:23]:
Well, I mean, helping complex patients, I mean, that's it. I mean it's still from way back in 2009 when I started with the mental health patients. Same concept. I mean, taking these patients, having them understand the importance, whether it's with their caregivers or themselves to take their medications, organize it for them, make sure they're taking the right medications. And again, it's not patients on 1, 2, 3 medications. It's complex patients. I mean, very, very complex. I mean, we've gone into patients, homes, 20, 30, 40 meds sometimes and we have to figure out, all right, well, shouldn't be taking 40 meds.

Dale Wollschleger [00:26:04]:
I don't think anybody should.

Dale Wollschleger [00:26:05]:
Right.

Dale Wollschleger [00:26:05]:
So you got to figure out what the right regimen is and figure all that. We still do that today and we want to continue to grow and we are the leader and we will continue to be the leader with that.

Jeffrey Stern [00:26:18]:
So it's kind of cool with regards to, I mean, leadership, arguably, maybe the market didn't even exist when you were starting or maybe you were competing with what is just the status quo of how people were managing themselves. Today folks might be more familiar, at least just through name recognition of Amazon and Pillpack, something like that. But how do you think about almost creating a market?

Dale Wollschleger [00:26:44]:
Yeah, so I still today say there's nobody like us. And it's funny, everyone, when Pillpack came out and when they sold to Amazon, it was like they invented this market, it was the biggest thing in the world, blah, blah, blah. And I would just laugh kind of because they do the only thing they did at the time and do was multi dose package. That's the only similarities, literally the Only similarities. And I laugh about it because we are very clinical, we are very patient focused. We are truly taking care of the patient, figuring it out with all their prescribers, what regimen's there. They really just packaged medication and would send it to your home. And so then when they sold to Amazon, Amazon was still trying to figure out what they wanted to do in health care.

Dale Wollschleger [00:27:37]:
So they just wanted to buy something and that's what they bought. I mean, you know, great company. It grew very well. Pillpack grew. The, the, the founders did very well, all that great stuff. And today Amazon is more of, I believe, and I really, to be honest with you, haven't tracked it too much, but I believe it's just more of just like a pharmacy. You can just order medications and they'll in vials and deliver them. I haven't heard too much about pill pack and what they've done.

Dale Wollschleger [00:28:02]:
I know they don't do what we do or have gone clinical like we, we do. I don't even know if they still do it, to be honest with you. The multidough patch, they may. I'm not, I'm 100. I'm not sure 100. But, but yeah, it's. I, I also, I love competition. So, you know, it's like, all right, we'll go do it.

Dale Wollschleger [00:28:22]:
There's so many patients out there that need these services. So the more that can do this, great. Like, there's a lot of copycats out there, which is great. I mean, it's, you know, whether it's from mom and pop pharmacies that are doing it, trying to do what we're doing behind the counter, and they have that ability to take care of these patients. Great. And you know, they'll have ones that are growing and that, that's, that's phenomenal. So I encourage that for sure.

Dale Wollschleger [00:28:48]:
Yeah.

Jeffrey Stern [00:28:49]:
I feel like at the heart of maybe the origins was this observation that maybe pharmacists are underutilized or undervalued in some capacity. What do you feel as a pharmacist yourself? I'm curious both what you feel has been transferable to your role and journey as the founding CEO of this organization, if anything, and, and where you feel there's still opportunity for pharmacists to be better utilized.

Dale Wollschleger [00:29:19]:
Well, I think it's, I think just pharmacy in general and pharmacists, I think they are starting to be utilized a lot more clinically. Instead of just counting by the joke is counting by fives and fill in pill bottles and handing them out. You Know, what does a pharmacist do? That's all they do, right? That's what. That's what people used to think. But I mean, you know, more and more, I mean, you have pharmacists in so many different areas now. You know, whether it's in hospital systems, whether it's with big pharmaceutical companies helping out, whether it's nursing home pharmacies, but they really are taking more of a clinical approach. Even, you know, even the retail guys, you know, here and there are really trying to get pharmacists to take more of the clinical approach, whether they're doing immune immunizations, helping just with them. But I think as technology grows, even AI and just a lot of things, I mean, it's all about getting the pharmacist away from doing things they don't need to do.

Dale Wollschleger [00:30:20]:
They didn't get educated to do count pills or do things that, you know, check the color of a pill. I mean, come on, any. You know, first of all, anybody can kind of do that, but it's just the responsibility of that. So we're like, AI will help with that. I mean, there's still a lot of things you need to. To do. The have a pharmacist overlook and check and different things like that. But.

Dale Wollschleger [00:30:40]:
But it has continued to evolve. I think some of these pharmaceutical pharmacy schools out there now, it's just amazing. The research they do on medications and the ability to be able to go and take pharmacists into different areas is great. And some of them are even coming up with some entrepreneurial classes, which I really like, to Ohio Northern. And I went back a few times and was a guest lecturer at some of the classes, and they had entrepreneurial classes. I'm like, oh, this is cool. They didn't have that when I was. When I went to school.

Dale Wollschleger [00:31:12]:
But it's cool to be able to get pharmacists to understand you could do things entrepreneurial or on your own and that type of thing. So it's continuing to evolve. It's cool.

Jeffrey Stern [00:31:24]:
Was there a particular skill set or framing of your pharmacist background that you did find transferable to entrepreneurship?

Dale Wollschleger [00:31:35]:
No. I don't know. No. I mean, you know, it's funny going through pharmacy school, there wasn't many, for whatever reason. It's just there wasn't many pharmacists or pharmacy students that were really entrepreneurial. They're more just. Honestly, they're smart, book smart and very focused on the clinic, which is great. But so when I kind of came out, it Wasn't.

Dale Wollschleger [00:32:00]:
I guess it really wasn't common to have an entrepreneurial spirit being a pharmacist. Maybe that was the. Maybe that was the part that really helped me. Right. There wasn't a ton of competition of pharmacists coming out with that same kind of mindset.

Dale Wollschleger [00:32:12]:
Yeah.

Jeffrey Stern [00:32:13]:
How did you think about your own personal growth as a leader from just starting this out of the back of pharmacies to branches, bringing in kind of multiple tranches of private equity partners over the years and managing acquisitions? I mean, ultimately, the organization is hundreds of people now, hundreds of millions of revenue. How did you think about your own evolution as an entrepreneur through that journey, and what were maybe some of the harder lessons learned along the way?

Dale Wollschleger [00:32:42]:
Yeah, well, I mean, you live and learn with everything you do, right. In life. And same thing, you fake it till you make it a little bit.

Dale Wollschleger [00:32:51]:
Right.

Dale Wollschleger [00:32:51]:
It's. It's a true statement, like you have to. But, you know, as you go and as you're, you know, the. The ups and downs, especially with. We talked about private equity coming in, right. They really want you to hit your numbers and make sure you're hitting everything perfect. And we have been very lucky that we have been growing, but we've had definite bumps, whether it's fighting with insurance companies, PBMs, the devil, that everybody thinks there's some truth to that. And when you have those ups and downs, you know, the folks at the private equity, they're just thinking about the dollars and cents.

Dale Wollschleger [00:33:23]:
They don't necessarily see that as the same way. They just want you to grow. So you had to, like, really. You know, we've had some board meetings where it's just like, oh, my gosh, that was very tough board meeting. So you kind of learn how to deal with those types of things. But in the end, you know, you just got to keep. Keep working, keep figuring it out. Reimbursement of pharmaceuticals back to the pharmacy, it just.

Dale Wollschleger [00:33:47]:
I mean, it doesn't go up. And you have to figure that out. How do you. How do you make money so you can take care of more patients right? Through scale, through whatever it may be, the types of patients you're. You're talking to, negotiating with, with whoever. You know, you live and learn a lot. But probably one of the biggest things is, I know a lot of people say this, but it's so true. Hire the right people, right? Hire the people that have had that experience, and then you teach them what you've learned and put it together with what they've learned.

Dale Wollschleger [00:34:22]:
And, you know, you could do some really big things, and we did that. We've done that quite a bit, and we're continuing to do that too, which is hiring some great folks. And. But that would be probably one of the bigger ones hiring, right?

Jeffrey Stern [00:34:36]:
How do you think about culture and maintaining it through the evolution of the business to where it is today and maintaining the service quality and just balancing what is always like a rapid growth with commitment to the culture and quality.

Dale Wollschleger [00:34:53]:
Early on, I knew everybody's name in the company early on, their families, their whatever, but as you grow, it's just not possible. But, you know, we would try to just keep that culture with whether, you know, the. The folks underneath me and underneath them, you just kind of keep that, hey, you got to know everybody, you got to take care of them in certain ways. You got to have fun. I mean, early on, you can't do it as much anymore.

Dale Wollschleger [00:35:19]:
But.

Dale Wollschleger [00:35:20]:
But early on we would, you know, whether it's picnics, whether it's grill out here and there, whether it's send them bonuses for whatever, whether it have St Patty's Day lunches or whatever it is. But one of the cool things that we did very early on, we. With all our folks that were on the phones, we would have big smiley faces right at them, staring at them. One day I actually brought them in and I put them up to everybody, and they're like, what is this? I'm like, well, I know you. Some of you might be having a good day, bad day, whatever, but the people on the other end feel that.

Dale Wollschleger [00:35:53]:
And.

Dale Wollschleger [00:35:53]:
And it's not there, you know, important for that, or they don't know what's going on in your life. And same thing. You don't know what's going on in their life. So if you're smiling through the phone, so that's what we used to say, smile through the phone. So we just kind of smile through the phone, built that culture. And that was early on. And, you know, it's. And you just again, back to hiring great people in the HR department and just going from there.

Jeffrey Stern [00:36:17]:
How do you think about success? And personally, professionally, like, what. What do you felt was. Was motivating you through this. This journey? What was the impact you're hoping to have?

Dale Wollschleger [00:36:30]:
Well, just take care of more patients. I mean, that needed it. And you know, and to. Really. One of the interesting parts about our business is we always talk about, like, patients we lose, right? Or churn through or. And why. And the company that was built was, okay, we have these very complex patients. It's Very difficult to get them to take their medication, to understand change.

Dale Wollschleger [00:36:56]:
Right.

Dale Wollschleger [00:36:56]:
So especially with elderly, I'm used to having my family member come over and put them in whatever. Right. Could be cups, whatever they have. And they label it their own way to. Okay, now it's going to be easier for everybody, safer for everybody. And you're going to have these pharmacists, these clinical folks in the background helping with you all behind the scenes. So the patients that churn. So you're just like, well, why are they churning? So it's the first.

Dale Wollschleger [00:37:20]:
We always. We joke it's the first 90 days. If we keep a patient for 90 days, then they're a patient for life. And it's because they, you know, they wouldn't know what else to do without our services. But it's important to get them to figure out those first 90 days because there's so much change and stuff like that. So that was big focus of like, all right, let's take care of these 90 days. That's really give them the, you know, the best customer service. We're going to continue to do that, but do that.

Dale Wollschleger [00:37:45]:
So that was something, you know, that brought a lot of success to the business and success for me, because you could see it like, working. I love seeing. I love seeing the patients grow with success, but. And to get more patients to help with that. And that is success to me. But I also love seeing employees and just like, whether it's employees that, you know, just want the success of financial. That's great, too. It is what it is, right? And the financial success to employees that want to go to school and continue to grow within the company.

Dale Wollschleger [00:38:20]:
We have a. This is years ago. We had a technician that came in. I honestly, I was like, I don't know if we're going to hire her. Not sure. Ended up hiring her. She was great. She wanted to go back to school to continue to grow.

Dale Wollschleger [00:38:33]:
I mean, she has moved up so many different rankings in this business, and it's just so cool to see it. She got her masters. She kept moving up. I had someone that used to, when we first started, I don't know what employee, maybe he was fifth employee, something like that. Maybe not even. He literally delivered medications. That's what he did. He came every day, picked up a bunch of medications, deliver.

Dale Wollschleger [00:38:59]:
He runs our operations now.

Dale Wollschleger [00:39:01]:
Right.

Dale Wollschleger [00:39:01]:
It's. It's just. It's unbelievable to see, like, the growth of that and those. Those cool stories. Pharmacists who, you know, there's pharmacists that have been with us throughout the whole time. And some of them didn't want to be the top person. They just want to continue to be a pharmacist and really help patients. And that's their success.

Dale Wollschleger [00:39:19]:
And they. And it's awesome to see that. And we continue to have them have that stable job and do what they love. And then there's others that want that, you know, step up, and then there's others that wanted to continue to grow and then go somewhere else and grow in a different, different company. And that was great too, to be able to see, hey, man, we really built them and gave them the education, gave them a lot of the skill sets, and they move on and have done great things. So that's successful. That's from the business side of things. The main success I look at is your family, your kids, and the success of just watching them grow and kind of giving them everything you can to give them the tools to be successful and be happy in life.

Jeffrey Stern [00:40:04]:
Having spent as much time as you have in the industry itself, what do you wish more people understood about it?

Dale Wollschleger [00:40:15]:
Well, I think people think sometimes in pharmacy or companies in general, oh, that person or whatever's just lucky. I always laugh, like when people say, oh, that they're lucky. Do you need luck? Absolutely. But you got to create luck. So that's the way I look at it. Right. And it's, it's not just lucky. You work very, very, very hard to get to where you are.

Dale Wollschleger [00:40:33]:
It doesn't matter what it is and all that stuff.

Dale Wollschleger [00:40:36]:
Yeah.

Jeffrey Stern [00:40:37]:
You mentioned maybe the.

Dale Wollschleger [00:40:40]:
Eluded devil of.

Jeffrey Stern [00:40:41]:
The industry and PBM is perhaps some truth to it. How do you think about just. If you had the magic wand and you can prescribe your own medication to fix the healthcare industry, how have you thought about what the real bottlenecks in the industry are and where there's opportunity to unlock a lot of just effectiveness?

Dale Wollschleger [00:41:03]:
Yeah. I think what helps is just transparency within it because there's a lot of. I mean, it's funny, I mean, pharmacy world, right? Take, take that for example, of just like, okay, how do. How does. How do pharmacies make money?

Dale Wollschleger [00:41:17]:
Right.

Dale Wollschleger [00:41:18]:
So pharmacies make money a lot of them. There's a lot of different ways, but they make money by buying medication in bulk and dispensing them to the patient. And the insurance company pays you X dollars, Right. Minus what you paid for them, and then you do a ton of work to get it there, and then you make that. That difference. Well, the crazy part is these PBMs come in and they negotiate all these rates and you can have same medication, you can make $20 on $100 or you can lose $5. Same medication, different insurance, different PBM. Makes no sense.

Dale Wollschleger [00:41:55]:
It literally makes no sense.

Jeffrey Stern [00:41:56]:
It doesn't make any sense.

Dale Wollschleger [00:41:57]:
And nobody can even understand it. I've been doing. I've been doing this for years. I still don't understand it. So the transparency, I think, would be huge. Right. To continue. And that's coming more and more to be transparent.

Dale Wollschleger [00:42:10]:
It just blows your mind on how these, how it works today. And if they truly just were very transparent and if pharmacies did not get reimbursed for the medication, but got reimbursed for the service level that they're giving the patients, that that would be great. It just. It's difficult because of the way that it's been for so many years. And to try to change that is very, very, very difficult because there's just so many intertwined webs of the way who gets. Whether it's the drug company that's making the drug, whether it's the, the insurance plan, whether it's the pharmacy, whether it's the pbm, whoever it is. There's just so many. It's a tangled web of who's getting a little piece of that.

Dale Wollschleger [00:42:56]:
But I think there's more and more PBMs trying to pop up to be more transparent. I know the federal government is getting involved in PBMs and saying, hey, you can't have, whether it's a pharmacy, own a pharmacy chain, and then also be affiliated with the PBM or the plan, insurance plan. So we'll see how that goes. But politics are politics and you just never know.

Dale Wollschleger [00:43:24]:
Sure.

Jeffrey Stern [00:43:25]:
Are you optimistic about it or maybe an alternative way of framing it as what are you most excited about looking forward?

Dale Wollschleger [00:43:33]:
I just think people have to continue to be creative to figure out ways around it. You can't just sit and wait for somebody to change something. They're like, oh, great, they changed that. Now we're going to all benefit. Just doesn't work that way usually, but we'll see. I mean, people are trying to do things, lobbying for different things, but keep giving that level of service. Even like early on, for my business, I always said, just keep doing the right thing, keep taking care of the patient. Everything else will fall into place.

Dale Wollschleger [00:44:04]:
When you had your ups and downs and it did, and it continues to do it, but you have to make smart business decisions along the way, and that's just part of it.

Dale Wollschleger [00:44:14]:
Yeah.

Jeffrey Stern [00:44:15]:
At the onset you mentioned, I Don't know. I'd call it a pride in building this here in Cleveland. And I just want to ask about what it's meant to build it here.

Dale Wollschleger [00:44:29]:
Yeah, I mean, I'm from Cleveland, born and raised. Family's here, still here, extended family. You know, it's home to me. So obviously I take a lot of pride in that. I still want the Browns to win a Super Bowl. I don't know if that'll, that'll happen. Hope so. But, you know, just all Cleveland sports teams, all with, you know, Cleveland in general.

Dale Wollschleger [00:44:51]:
You know, I want it to be, you know, a great place for, for my kids. Hopefully they stay in Cleveland, you never know. But. And, you know, whether it's whoever, friends and family all over Cleveland, I mean, I definitely take a lot of pride in seeing Cleveland grow. Ohio in general. Right. I love, love Ohio. So it's, it's kind of cool being involved now with the Ohio Fund and, and what a great idea to, to take a bunch of folks that have done great things and help invest and help think through companies to continue to build Ohio.

Dale Wollschleger [00:45:28]:
There's just a lot of, A lot of smart folks that come. Come out of Ohio, come out of Cleveland. I had a, I had a board member. Still do have a board member on my board for years. Great guy. His name is Doug. Present. Real smart guy.

Dale Wollschleger [00:45:40]:
I've done some great things in healthcare, teaching and different things, and he always says it always comes back to Cleveland. He just laughs. He goes, oh, of course, you're from Cleveland. Of course they're from Cleveland. Healthcare especially, always comes back from Cleveland. So it's cool to see that and hear those things from the outside and yeah, definitely take a lot of pride in and continue to build things in Ohio and Cleveland.

Dale Wollschleger [00:46:05]:
Yeah.

Jeffrey Stern [00:46:06]:
One of the ideas that we're always kind of ruminating on is.

Dale Wollschleger [00:46:12]:
What can.

Jeffrey Stern [00:46:12]:
We do to raise the collective ambition for the state? And I'm curious, if anything comes to mind, what would you pose?

Dale Wollschleger [00:46:22]:
Well, I mean, honestly, I think the Ohio Fund's a great one.

Dale Wollschleger [00:46:25]:
Right?

Dale Wollschleger [00:46:26]:
I mean, what you guys are doing, I mean, it's, hey, trying to bring all these smart folks together who have done things and continue to bring smarter folks into Ohio and recognize, hey, I can bring them in or them in. Almost think of like, right, the, a little bit of like the Shark Tank of Ohio. That would be a great concept, right, to do something like that. Even though I hear there's not many great companies that actually come out of Shark Tank, but make it a little bit higher level Shark Tank type Thing for Ohio would be kind of cool. I think it's just getting the word out of how great it is. You know, it's. I mean, it just is you. I mean, you look at other states.

Dale Wollschleger [00:47:03]:
There's other great states, too, don't get me wrong. But it's. I mean, people I feel from Ohio are just like grounded and they're just, you know, well rounded, you know, not fake. And it's kind of cool to see that. And it's a great place to live. So why not. Why not grow companies and grow Ohio?

Dale Wollschleger [00:47:22]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Jeffrey Stern [00:47:25]:
What do you feel is a hidden gem in Cleveland? Something that other folks should know about that maybe they don't.

Dale Wollschleger [00:47:31]:
Hidden gem in Cleveland? Well, when I think of stuff like hidden gem, I think probably restaurants or something like that. My wife and I always. I mean, there's so many. That's another great part about Cleveland. The food scene is unbelievable. But I probably would have to go, when I think of that, to Hidden gem is where I grew up. I grew up in Chesterland, Ohio, and there's a local pizza place called Guido's that's definitely a hidden gem. Pizza's phenomenal.

Dale Wollschleger [00:47:59]:
But I don't know otherwise, like, our go to, my wife and I and family and everything is a go to is a place called Flower in Moreland Hills. That's always one that we love. I'd say those are our hidden gems. I don't know how hidden there, but they're.

Jeffrey Stern [00:48:14]:
Yeah, right on. I'll have to try Guidos. That sounds.

Dale Wollschleger [00:48:17]:
Oh, yeah, it's good. You'll like it. Cool.

Jeffrey Stern [00:48:21]:
Well, I'll bookend it here with kind of a meta question of sorts. But is there anything that we didn't talk about that you feel is particularly important when you reflect on your journey, the entrepreneurial journey otherwise that you want to share?

Dale Wollschleger [00:48:41]:
Yeah, I'd say. One thing, I would probably say people have asked me also, like, how I got to the place and what really also inspired me, what helped me along the way. And I will say youth sports, I think that's so important, particularly for me, was football. Just high school football in general. Working as a team, having coaches that were phenomenal, seeing other athletes grow. My wife and I are really big believers in and we donate a lot to youth sports. We really believe in that. I coached my twins from first grade through eighth grade.

Dale Wollschleger [00:49:20]:
I coached my daughter basketball, which is really fun. So I think just having that camaraderie with sports translates, I think, to life. That's just a passion of ours. It's not for everybody, but but I really encourage youth sports for sure.

Jeffrey Stern [00:49:41]:
Yeah, that certainly resonates. Appreciate you sharing that.

Dale Wollschleger [00:49:45]:
Yeah, absolutely.

Jeffrey Stern [00:49:47]:
Well Dale, I just want to thank you for coming on, sharing a little bit more about your story and the incredible business that you built here in Cleveland.

Dale Wollschleger [00:49:55]:
Awesome. Well, good luck to you and appreciate it. Appreciate the time.

Jeffrey Stern [00:49:58]:
Thank you for tuning in to the Ohio Fund Report. If you enjoyed this podcast, we'd love for you to leave a review on your favorite platform and subscribe to stay updated on all future episodes. You can subscribe via Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or directly on our website at TheOhioFund.com the information shared on this podcast is for informational purposes only and does not constitute investment advice, an offer to sell, or a solicitation of an offer to buy any security. Past performance is not indicative of future results. The views and opinions expressed by our guests are solely their own and do not necessarily represent those of the Ohio Fund. A guest's participation in this podcast does not imply an endorsement or an investment recommendation by the Ohio Fund. This podcast may include conversations with leadership of a company in which the Ohio Fund or its affiliated funds have an investment and as such, financial interest in the success of this company and there may be a conflict of interest in presenting information about the company and its performance. Any forward looking statements or projections discussed during this episode are based on current expectations, assumptions and estimates.

Jeffrey Stern [00:51:11]:
Actual outcomes may differ materially due to a variety of risks, uncertainties and other factors. Listeners should consult their own legal, tax and financial advisors before making any investment decision decisions. For more information about the Ohio Fund, including our form, adv, other regulatory filings and additional conversations, please visit theohiofund.com that's all for this week. Thank you for listening.

Dale Wollschleger [00:51:38]:
We'd love to hear your thoughts on.

Jeffrey Stern [00:51:40]:
Today'S show, so if you have any feedback please send over an email to jeffreyoftheland FM or find us on Twitter oddleayoftheland or sternfa J E F E if you or someone you know would make a good guest for our show, please reach out as well and let us know. And if you enjoy the podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on itunes or on your preferred podcast player. Your support goes a long way to help us spread the word and continue to bring the Cleveland founders and builders we love having on the show. We'll be back here next week at the same time to map more of the land. The Lay of the Land podcast was developed in collaboration with the UP Company LLC at the time of this recording. Unless otherwise indicated, we do not own equity or other financial interests in the company which appear on this show. All opinions expressed by podcast participants are solely their own and do not reflect the opinions of any entity which employs us. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as.

Jeffrey Stern [00:52:37]:
A basis for investment decisions.

Jeffrey Stern [00:52:39]:
Thank you for listening and we'll talk to you next week.