#208: Sonia Winner (Cleveland Museum of Natural History) - $150m Centennial Transformation

Sonia Winner [00:00:00]:
You have to have a growth mindset about everything you do. I I always want more. I wanna travel more. I wanna have more dogs. I wanna have more everything in my life. And, I think sometimes people that can be really hard for people, to deal with me because I'm always a big dreamer. I'm always, I've always have been somebody like that and and bringing people along because some people are really comfortable with where they are. And and so I've had to also learn, how to listen to that as well.

Sonia Winner [00:00:38]:
But I'm moving fast, and, that's okay too.

Jeffrey Stern [00:00:44]:
Welcome to the Lay of the Land podcast, where we are exploring what people are building in Cleveland and throughout Northeast Ohio. I am your host, Jeffrey Stern. And today, I had the real pleasure of speaking with Sonya Winter, the CEO of the Cleveland Museum of Natural History. In February, she became the tenth director of the museum in its more than one hundred year history dating back to 1920, and has since spearheaded a $150,000,000 renovation of the whole whole institution, reimagining its campus and exhibits to highlight the interconnectedness of life on Earth. Under her leadership, the museum continues its century long legacy as one of the nation's top natural history institutions, stewarding over 12,000 acres of protected ecosystems and housing more than 5,000,000 artifacts and specimens with a nearly 60 person board of directors, one hundred forty staff members, and approximately 282,000,000 in assets. Before joining the museum, Sonya built an impressive career in higher education and philanthropy. In leadership at Columbia University, she led record breaking fundraising efforts, helping secure 6,100,000,000 for the university. Prior, she held leadership roles at Case Western Reserve University as an associate dean of both the Weatherhead School of Management, as well as the law school.

Jeffrey Stern [00:02:06]:
And a lawyer by training, served as the director of the Cleveland Marshall College of Law at Cleveland State University prior. This was an amazing conversation. Sonya's passion for this work comes through in spades as we work through the transformative power of museums, cultivating childhood curiosity, the museum's rich history and legacy, her personal journey to leading a major cultural institution, the ambitious Centennial project aimed at revitalizing the museum experience, the overall business of museums, and a whole lot more. Please enjoy this insightful discussion with Sonya Winter. Lay of the Land is brought to you and is proudly sponsored by Roundstone Insurance. Headquartered in Rocky River, Ohio, Roundstone shares Lay of the Land's same passion for bold ideas and lasting impact from our community's entrepreneurs, innovators, and leaders. Since 02/2005, Roundstone has pioneered a self funded captive health insurance model that delivers robust savings for small and medium sized businesses. They are part of the solution to rising health care costs, helping employers offer affordable high quality care while driving job creation and economic growth throughout Northeast Ohio.

Jeffrey Stern [00:03:18]:
Like many of the voices featured on Lay of the Land, including Roundstone's founder and CEO, Mike Schroeder, Roundstone believes entrepreneurship, innovation, and community to be the cornerstones of progress. To learn more about how Roundstone is transforming employee health benefits by empowering employers to save thousands in per employee per year health care costs, please visit roundstoneinsurance.com. Roundstone Insurance, built for entrepreneurs, backed by innovation, committed to Cleveland. So very excited to have you on today, Sonya. Wonderful. We were just before we turned on the mic here, I think you had mentioned both children and magic, and I, you know, feel like that's a great place to start. As a a lover of museums and nature myself, I find the Museum of Natural History to have a special power of reigniting this childlike curiosity that you don't get to experience in in many other places. And that's certainly the the case for myself growing up in New York and going to the the Natural History Museum there and and always resurfaces those memories when I come to the Cleveland Museum of Natural History and walk around and everything that you've built and and are leading.

Jeffrey Stern [00:04:33]:
It it really is a a magical place.

Sonia Winner [00:04:36]:
Well, I think what we're proud of the most is that kids are in charge here. And there are very few places in the world or in life where children are in charge, and they feel so comfortable. And they're actually the ones who are showing their families around, and navigating. And, you know, a great story, since you're from New York, that you might be interested in is the American Museum of Natural History. The president and CEO is Sean Decatur, and Sean is a friend of mine, and Sean used to be the president of Kenyon College. And guess where Sean grew up? Cleveland, Ohio. And he went to our summer camps as a little boy. His mom was a Cleveland Public School Teacher.

Sonia Winner [00:05:22]:
And he went to our summer camps, and that ignited his love of science. Wow. And so he loves our museum. He's been a great friend to our museum. I have really enjoyed some of the great things that they're doing at the American Museum of Natural History. So just remember that all of those seeds can sometimes be planted when you're a child, and you can grow up to be a scientist. Although, we want kids to just love, natural the natural world, and they don't have to grow up to be scientists to love the Natural History Museum. But it's a great story.

Jeffrey Stern [00:05:57]:
It is a great story. It's incredible how all roads seem to leave to Cleveland.

Sonia Winner [00:06:02]:
That's right.

Jeffrey Stern [00:06:03]:
All the time.

Sonia Winner [00:06:04]:
Absolutely. Absolutely.

Jeffrey Stern [00:06:06]:
So in the spirit, of childhood, which is when so many of us create these formative memories of of going to the museum, What comes to mind when you reflect on your childhood and going to the museum?

Sonia Winner [00:06:21]:
So I'm not from Cleveland. I was born in The Philippines, and I moved 14 times before high school. So for me, going to museums in general, that was, like, a really big deal and a special trip, almost like a field trip experience because I grew up sometimes far away from cities. So to go to a museum and to see it was just amazing. But I do remember that we had an eighth grade field trip where we went to the Smithsonian and to all of the museums in Washington, DC. And I thought, wow. This is just so interesting and that someone could have a career working at a museum. I don't think I ever truly realized that piece of it, that that you could be part of it.

Sonia Winner [00:07:09]:
I've always been the kid who's liked ideas. I'm actually a nerd. And I think that for me, it's just been this great combination of all the things I love. I mean, I love to learn. And for me, working at a museum is just such a great privilege because you get to do that every day.

Jeffrey Stern [00:07:28]:
So you you hadn't imagined when you were younger that you would be in the position that you are at the moment.

Sonia Winner [00:07:33]:
Absolutely not. Absolutely not. I grew up in a family where we loved to be in nature. And even my own experiences as a parent, we took our kids hiking. We took our kids to all of those great national parks, and my son learned to walk here. So but for me to be a child and thinking you're gonna grow up and you're gonna be leading a natural history museum and not only leading it, but really transforming it. I mean, it's it's just really been a great privilege for me to do that. And I've I've been so lucky to have the support of my family as I've done this because this has truly, been an all consuming, mission.

Jeffrey Stern [00:08:15]:
Yeah. And we'll certainly, unpack both the the leading and transformation. But, I think set the, you know, whole whole stage here, I'd love if you could share a bit of your your path to the museum. You know, you you have this, you know, eclectic background across higher education and academia and fundraising. What what drew you ultimately to be in the position where you are at the moment?

Sonia Winner [00:08:39]:
So, you know, I think that my reputation is that when I'm given a project, I really execute on it and I try to transform. I'm a little like Mary Poppins in that I will I like to fix things, and I like to make things better. That's sort of been a natural part, I think, of my career. And I always sometimes people ask me how I how I did all of this, but I really think it's important to do the very best job with whatever opportunity you've been given. And, and to not look. You know, a lot of people have these five year plans and everything else. I don't know if life really works out that way. I think that in many ways, you really can do the very best job you can with what you have and also bringing a great team of people around you.

Sonia Winner [00:09:30]:
So my formative years, I will say that one constant, regardless of 14 moves before high school, was that my family loved books. And every Wednesday, we would go to the library, public library, and we would each go to our different corners of what we loved, And then we would regroup, and then we would go out for ice cream. That was one of the constants in my childhood.

Jeffrey Stern [00:09:58]:
What an amazing tradition.

Sonia Winner [00:09:59]:
And it is because, you know, my parents didn't have money. I'm the first person in my family to go to college. And but yet that was so important that we were learning and growing and in our own ways, whatever we were interested in. And for me, I think that planted that seed of always being willing to do new things and to want to be challenged by new things and not to be see that as a roadblock, but really to see it as, wow, that's a great opportunity, and how can I climb this hill and bring others with me? So I was always a good student. There's no getting around that that point. But I always felt as if, to tell you the truth, being a woman and being blonde, sometimes you are seen not quite as smart as other people. So I think that the law degree really gave me that credential to to be in the room where it happens as they say it in Hamilton.

Jeffrey Stern [00:10:59]:
Yeah.

Sonia Winner [00:10:59]:
And so, you know, I worked really hard. I worked I I put myself through undergrad and law school. And, I went to a big law firm to work, and I realized that there was no way I was ever going to be very good at, being in the library and just researching all the time because I'm just too much of an extrovert. So I was lucky enough, I think, to find that I really liked working with people and working having this law degree, but using it in a nontraditional way. So I worked in law school administration, at two different places. And then the dean of the law school one day said, hey. Do you wanna do do you wanna be a fundraiser? And I said, I've never been a fundraiser in my whole life. And, he said, But it's all about relationships.

Sonia Winner [00:11:51]:
And I've never forgotten that story because I think that that is why I have been able to accomplish what I've been able to accomplish with my colleagues is that it is really all about relationships. It's not transactional. Anything that you need to do. I sometimes go say that I go I go long and deep with people, is that I I really wanna know what makes them tick and to know about the them. So I I really feel as if I've I've been lucky in that regard to do that. And then I've been here in the Cleveland area. I was here working at Case Western for almost thirteen years. I spent a long time at Case Western as well as at Cleveland State before that.

Sonia Winner [00:12:37]:
And I had an opportunity to go to New York City and to go to Columbia. And I was lucky enough at the time that, I had the full support of my family even though I had children still in high school and, my husband here. And that's another great lesson, I think, particularly for women. Make sure you marry well, and people who are supportive of you. But also, you know, I had a little bit of I had a number of people say to me, how could you leave your family? And I remember thinking to myself, if I were a man, would they be saying that same thing? And having that kind of double standard about things. And so my husband commuted to New York City with two standard poodles in the car, every couple weeks to see me. And it was actually a wonderful thing for six and a half years and to learn, best of class practice in how a a great organization like Columbia University, which I consider the gold standard and one of the finest institutions in the world with amazing leadership and amazing faculty that every every day was just so exciting and a privilege. But to work across a broad, and an amazing scale of the work that they did and to really be able to supervise the global programs they did and all of the different disciplines that Columbia is known for.

Sonia Winner [00:14:06]:
And so, you know, when opportunity came really because of LaGuardia Airport, I will blame it on LaGuardia Airport, that

Jeffrey Stern [00:14:14]:
It it always blame it on LaGuardia.

Sonia Winner [00:14:16]:
Yeah. I know. I know. Well, now it looks beautiful.

Jeffrey Stern [00:14:18]:
But the cons

Sonia Winner [00:14:19]:
the but the construction, that was going on left me sometimes at 02:30 in the morning. I would be landing and trying to get a cab to get back into the city. And I thought, is this worth it? And this is before any we could think about, you know, remote work and all of those things. So I made the decision to come back, and I had always loved the museums here. I loved the art museum, loved the natural history museum, loved the orchestra, all of the arts and culture that makes Cleveland so special. So there were there was an opportunity here at the natural history museum. And so I was recruited, and I came back in January of twenty seventeen, as the chief philanthropy officer.

Jeffrey Stern [00:15:10]:
How would you describe what the Cleveland Museum of Natural History is?

Sonia Winner [00:15:14]:
I think it's a community asset, and it's a trailhead for the community to engage in a love of nature and a love of science.

Jeffrey Stern [00:15:24]:
Can you take us a bit through the origins and and evolution of it over time? I know it's over Sure. Hundred years old now. Just Yes. Where did it come from?

Sonia Winner [00:15:34]:
So it's kind of amazing. It's a legacy institution, the museum, and we should all be proud of it because I wanna take us all back to 1920 and think about a group of leaders. Here in Cleveland, we had built an amazing art museum, the Musical Arts Association, the Cleveland Orchestra. And then leaders started to work and think about what could we do for the community. What was the next great institution? Think about coming back from World War one, seeing the great museums in, Europe, living through a pandemic, and then saying this community needs something where knowledge is shared. And, actually, in our documents that were created the museum, it talks about the diffusion of knowledge and how knowledge is to be shared. And it's not just an academic exercise with all due respect to pure academics, is that people needed to share. And even the first director, Paul Marshall Ray, talked about that that's why he was attracted to this particular museum because we have always had that community service component.

Sonia Winner [00:16:52]:
And, also, we have the second, you know, longest education program in the country of really delivering to school groups and talking to them. And I think that that's been part of our legacy. The health museum merged with the Natural History Museum about twenty years ago, so that health component had has also been a part of our legacy. And when we think about healthy humans and a healthy planet, that's really kind of our mantra right now. But I I don't even think that I can say that it's just something that we came up with now. It's been a part of our, you know, 100 and nearly five year old legacy always to share that knowledge and to have a curatorial team and scientists who go all over the world to share this knowledge with the region.

Jeffrey Stern [00:17:44]:
As you came to lead the organization, how did you think about honoring that legacy? And, like, what what vision did you bring to the organization and what you imagined it could be? Where did you recognize opportunities to change? Where did where did you feel you had to kind of respect the the history and and past?

Sonia Winner [00:18:06]:
So we do have history in our title. And, you know, but it's not your grandfather's natural history museum. But, you know, if you think about it, in the twenties, a lot of people didn't travel. And so to put up, you know, animals that they had collected from all over the world, that was just, you know, so interesting and fantastic and wonderful. But people can now see animals. They can look at them on the Internet. And so how do we differentiate ourselves? We're very different from other natural history museums in that we have always had, for a long time, live animals that are rescues that can't go back, to, you know, going back into their habitats because of some story that they've had. So we knew that that was important.

Sonia Winner [00:18:56]:
We also have over 12,000 acres that we steward from the Pennsylvania border to about Kelly's Island. So we knew that those natural components were so important. But when we were thinking about the kind of museum that we wanted to look and see as a future state. We thought about how it's so important for people to be able to ask questions. So it's not just about putting objects out and people just, okay, reading what's on a plaque. It's about making sure that there's an inquiry based process. And we tested that through the pandemic. We we tested whether if we had scientists and we had objects out and we put out these big questions, would people be excited? And we found out that 85% of the time, people were were excited and wanted to ask those questions and would be willing to do it to scientists or to each other.

Sonia Winner [00:19:55]:
We found that out. We also realized that it was really important for us to be proud of this region. And one of the things that I think that happens when you move out of Cleveland is you become very nostalgic for the things that are special about Cleveland. And we're a very nostalgic city, and that's okay. Sometimes we're a little too risky at first. But, you know, I've observed that and commented on that, and I think all of us are thinking about how we navigate that. But we realized that we had so much to be proud of that's in this region, that, you know, the museum sits a lot less than a mile from Lake Erie, a quarter of the world's fresh waters from the Great Lakes. We we also have, you know, these iconic objects that tell the story of the generosity of Clevelanders through Balto raising for he and his teammates to come back to Cleveland and be rescued and live out the rest of their lives here, when the zoo was part of, the museum.

Sonia Winner [00:21:04]:
So what we decided is we're gonna just stand on what makes us proud to be part of this region. And this museum is about Cleveland and for Clevelanders and to be proud of that. And that was a really for for us, that then motivated everyone to start working on this project and how exciting it would be to tell that story. You know, 80% of our collection is from Ohio. So that Ohio based story, we really leaned into it and said, okay. Not only is our architecture going to reflect that, it it was this story, and we're so proud now that architecture reflects our mission. And to tell, you know, those glacial grooves and to tell the story of the Great Lakes and to tell the story, of how they were formed and our glacial history, we're really proud of how it all turned out. But to me, the story is that you should be true to yourself, to thy own self be true, is is something that sometimes I think all of us who live in this region is sometimes we're we're not as proud of that, and we aren't as vocal about, hey, wait a minute.

Sonia Winner [00:22:23]:
Just take a moment. We may have more snow, and we may have more gray days than other cities, but let's just go back and see all of our assets. So I hope that when people come in, they're really going to see that integrated story. And, you know, that is kind of the third piece I think that distinguishes this project is that you're not going to go into just a dinosaur hall. You're going to see why dinosaurs were successful, what happened to them, what happened to Dunkleosteus, the state fossil fish, why that's important, and to put yourself that humans cause a lot of harm in the world, but we also can be part of the solutions for other species. So I think those are the three big stories that I'd love for people to understand.

Jeffrey Stern [00:23:14]:
Yeah. They they they're resonant stories. Yeah. We were, talking a bit about Craig Hassle before we turned on the the mic here, and I feel like he shares a similar observation or threat. And maybe it's that it takes an outsider, but to to recognize, you know, how do you how do you raise the bar of ambition and, you know, take these big swings? And, you know, obviously over the last few years here, the museum has undergone a monumental transformation that that you have led.

Sonia Winner [00:23:45]:
And do you know, do you know that most of us that lead the cultural institution are out of towners that have somehow fallen in love with the city or fallen in love with someone from the city who Clevelanders are like salmon. They have to go back. They have to That's fascinating. Yes. It is fascinating.

Jeffrey Stern [00:24:02]:
I do I didn't know that exactly.

Sonia Winner [00:24:04]:
But But I will never become a Browns fan. Not that I don't love the Browns, but I'm I grew up as a Steelers fan. So that it that will always be part of my fabric. But but it is interesting to look around and see that some of us are not from the city, but we we care so much and we wanna contribute so much.

Jeffrey Stern [00:24:25]:
Absolutely. So take us through the the overview of of this Centennial project and, you know, really an incredible undertaking.

Sonia Winner [00:24:34]:
Right. I think that we're really proud that we were able to continue the momentum of the project. The project, the first phase of it, you know, when I inherited it, it had gone really over budget and it had, you know, created a parking lot and the Sears Garden and then all also our Perkins Wildlife Area presented by Key. So a number of those components have been done, but what really needed to be done was the the core part of the project, as I call it, the meat of the project, which was really showcasing the science and, showcasing natural history in our wings. And so we went and we did more bids. We had new project directors, new exhibit designers, a new architect. And it you know, that was just really remarkable. And I will say something about our architect, who I think is a genius, Paul Westlake at DLR.

Sonia Winner [00:25:32]:
He and his team, he said to me that his grandchildren are gonna use this museum. And I think that that's really important to involve people from this region as much as you can in any project. And we really looked at that and tried to do that. And I will also say that our board you know, we have a large board. A lot of them had family members who were part of the museum's beginnings, so it is a legacy board. And we had two of our board members who attended every single exhibit design meeting. So that's how invested that they were. And, you know, we're really proud that we are a beloved institution, but we were kinda seen as this dark and static, not so many exciting things going on there.

Sonia Winner [00:26:23]:
And people loved us, but we were a little misunderstood and hadn't visited us since either their kids were little or since they were on a field trip. So we really also wanted to, although kids rule here, we wanted to have spaces where adults could come. So we're we're thinking about that. And, you know, what was holding us back? The building. So now that we fixed the building and we've done all of these remarkable things with the building, now it's all about the programming and what goes inside the building, which is the most important part of any institution, the talent we can create and the people that can come and visit. But I would say that we also you know, it's this you have to have a strong financial plan. We have had forty six years of balanced budgets. So when you make an investment here in the museum, you know it's a good investment.

Sonia Winner [00:27:18]:
We also knew too that we never wanted to go over a $200,000,000 mark because we didn't feel as if the community would support that. So 150,000,000, we stayed within that. We really focused on the visitor experience because we thought that that was the most important part is what will the visitor experience when they are here. So those things we really held to. And I think the third point is that we were able to get LEED platinum certification. So for those who don't know what LEED is, it's leadership leadership in energy and environmental design. We were received the highest rating, which is platinum. And we are the only museum right now in The United States to have that.

Sonia Winner [00:28:11]:
And so, Clevelanders should be really proud of everything we did to make sure that it was a green building and as sustainable as possible. And we feel as if that's really important. And some of the things people are wondering, why do they have dots on the windows? Well, that's to prevent birds from hitting into our windows. Or what are the things that we've done with our water retention systems? You know, a lot of things that are unsexy that you don't really see, but we really took the time to think about how we approached, that part of it. So we wanted to make sure as we approach this project that it was about Cleveland and for this region. We wanted to make sure that we stayed within our, you know, fiscal, you know, mark on that and make sure we hit our fiscal goals. And we also wanted to make sure, though, that we were building something that was sustainable and that we were letting the building reflect our mission.

Jeffrey Stern [00:29:13]:
Not to double down on the unsexy topic, but I I am actually fascinated by it and would love to do a a little deeper dive on the business of museums. You mentioned the finances, the donor relationships. Like, what how do you think about it as as the CEO of of the museum, staffing, you know, marketing operations? Which of these demands, you know, has most surprised you by its complexity? Just like, how do you think about the the whole business of the museum?

Sonia Winner [00:29:45]:
So museums are now civic institutions. They're not just places where a few people can come and play. And I think that that has been a big transition, in museums is that we need to be responsive to the communities in which we live and work. And I know that all of my colleagues at the museums in this region are really committed to that. And whether it's having Mandel community days where we are open or thinking about other revenue sources. So unlike European museums where they're 100%, you know, funded by the government, we have to seek out other support. And we have been lucky that the biggest donor to our museum has been the state of Ohio. We could not have this museum without state and without a governor who really believes in our mission and in education.

Sonia Winner [00:30:43]:
And the great thing about our museum is that we appeal to all sides of the aisle. People care about clean water, and they care about having a green city on a blue lake. So we're really very lucky in that regard. But I think that it's also educating the public, educating our staff that there is only so much money that we can have, and those sources are drying up. You know, challenges, for example, in our city, kids can't get to us because of transportation issues. So we have to create those opportunities, and we have to fundraise for them. And we have to think about how school buses can get here, and how those special programs can work out because schools also have pressure have pressure with a lot of limited, resources. But if you think about, any nonprofit, more than 50% of your budget is always going to be in the people because the people are that's what makes the magic happen here.

Sonia Winner [00:31:46]:
It's it's great that we have a beautiful building, but it's about the people. And that we want people to come here. We have 160 employees, all of which wanna live out the American dream and have, you know, everything that, is part of that experience. And so, you know, about 60% of our budget is really the people. We've been lucky enough that we have a very strong endowment. That endowment support, for those of you who, you know, aren't as familiar with an endowment, you know, we generally can spend about 5% of that endowment. And that endowment really ensures the future that every child will be able to experience the natural history museum. But you have to also remember that we it's this it's really this balance because you can't be so expensive that you have priced yourself out for so many families, but you also have to be as accessible and also to cover your budget.

Sonia Winner [00:32:48]:
And, you know, all institutions, and nonprofits are challenged by this, especially with less money from federal grants. A lot of our curators secure grants, whether it's for library support or from, you know, other research grants that they're doing. So it's always a challenge as you're kind of thinking about what the right business model is. And and you sometimes you have to make choices about what the priorities are. And for us, we are really focused on what are the programs that will serve the most people as we think about this.

Jeffrey Stern [00:33:26]:
You you had mentioned of the most important objectives of the transformation was an intentionality around what the visitor experience is. What do you hope that visitors feel and and take home from their their visit?

Sonia Winner [00:33:40]:
So I hope that they're first of all, I hope they love our windows because one of the things we found out in our listening project about the museum is the reason people don't go to museums is it's too dark. So I really hope that they love the light. That's really important. I also hope that they have the sense of pride and and about the region and say, wow. I did not know how unique we are and how proud we should should be of that. I also think too, I want them to come. I want them to learn. I want them to have fun.

Sonia Winner [00:34:13]:
That's really important to me, to have fun. But I want them to return because I want them to go, wow. I haven't seen everything, or, wow. I need to think about this a little bit more and to ask those questions and then wanna come back to learn more.

Jeffrey Stern [00:34:29]:
With with regards to learning more, I I've heard or have read rather you mentioned that dinosaurs are the gateway drug to natural history, and I I I just love that framing of it.

Sonia Winner [00:34:42]:
Yes. You know, you always love when you're doing an interview with the New York Times or with someone, and you've spent an hour and a half, and that is the one sound bite that they get from it. But, nevertheless, people I I get it. I I really do understand it. You know, dinosaurs, we're always going to be about dinosaurs because they're great. Even though they didn't really live in Northeast Ohio, we're always going to talk about, dinosaurs because they're magical and people love them. Happy, that sits in our visitor hall, was found by four young men who were, you know, asked to go out to Colorado and find a dinosaur. Well, they sure, you know, they sure did.

Sonia Winner [00:35:23]:
And, that's the holotype for its species. So I'm I'm proud of, happy and I'm proud of all the dinosaurs. But I do think that you need to engage people on other things that happen and in the world, whether it's bird populations decreasing, whether it's thinking about, the water quality in Lake Erie, whether it is thinking about how our natural areas program maintains pristine conditions that we can study and learn more about and these unique ecosystems. I think that that's the hook, and it's great that we can do that, but there's so much more to the natural world that we need to continue to understand and also about our own health. If you come to you know, we have two major wings here. One is dynamic earth, which is great because we're all made of stardust. How wonderful it is to think about that. But we also have a wing called evolving life, and we want people to understand that the decisions they make about their own health have an impact on others and the choices that we make.

Sonia Winner [00:36:38]:
So I just hope that, you know, as people experience all of this, is that they see themselves and go, wow. I'm part of this whole other larger story about life. And when they go into the planetarium, which is just so beautiful right now, We did yoga last Saturday in the planetarium, and when they're thinking about the stars, that we're all part of this larger story of life. And I do hope that they realize that as much as we all love dinosaurs. And Triceratops is my favorite dinosaur in case anybody's wondering.

Jeffrey Stern [00:37:15]:
A great choice. A great choice.

Sonia Winner [00:37:17]:
Yeah. Fearless, yet a vegetarian.

Jeffrey Stern [00:37:23]:
I guess you could bucket that whole topic there under the umbrella of scientific literacy. And I'm I'm curious what you feel the museum's role and responsibility is in in spreading that and and, you know, raising it within people? And can you measure it? Like, what what is it?

Sonia Winner [00:37:44]:
So we did a poll that was conducted by Marist where, a national poll, and it really represents an interesting model. It was across all Americans. Ninety percent of Americans wanna learn more about science, but 50% feel as if they're falling behind. But guess who they trust? They do not trust politicians, and, sadly, they do not trust journalists. And and what's happened in journalism is there are just not enough science reporters available. And so but who do they trust? They trust scientists. And so we really feel as if we have this obligation as an institution to be sharing what we know and what we don't know. And many times, science is very frustrating because we don't know.

Sonia Winner [00:38:33]:
You know, I'll give the example since everyone loves dinosaurs. Well, Happy's tail was on the wrong way, and we were able to fix it because we learned more than when he was discovered in the nineteen fifties. We learned more about how the tail should should be on, happy and attached. And so that's the story of science, is that sometimes we learn more even about, pandemics and learning about how people died from pandemics. The research in the collection that we have here at the museum showed that actually everyone always thought the Spanish flu, that people were otherwise healthy, and they just suddenly started dying. Well, guess what? Now the story that has recently been researched is that people were really sick, and they didn't know it. That's really the people who were victims of the Spanish flu. And so, you know, it's sometimes frustrating for people because I think you we as humans, we always want this certainty about things.

Sonia Winner [00:39:39]:
And, we hope that the public will start to understand, science more, that that that is part of the whole puzzle is figuring out these are the things we've learned, and these are the things that we don't know. And one of our researchers, for example, studies human tools and the importance of the development of human tools. And we may not ever know, how that might be relevant to today's world in some aspect. And even Balto, we've you know, he's he's been part of this great study that's been done on mammals and genetics. And so each part of our 5,000,000 objects that we have at the museum tells this story of life that is still unraveling and and still to be discovered. And so using that science based and evidence based learning, I think, is just so important in this world right now because we're all inundated with information. Twenty years ago or whenever email was created, it was supposed to be, oh, yeah. That was going to be so make our lives so simple.

Sonia Winner [00:40:48]:
No. It hasn't. Now I have to get now I have to look at text. I have to look at email. I have to look at snail mail. I have to look at everything and proactively kind of sift through a lot. So we're hoping that the museum reaspire, that people are going to come here and go, okay, I'm talking to a person who is an expert in their field, who is showing me evidence about the world around us.

Jeffrey Stern [00:41:17]:
Yeah. It's really interesting. I don't know that I've thought about it in this way before, and I I don't know this to be a fact, but I do know public trust in institutions has just fallen. And I would wager that museums are the bastion of hope where people still trust them. I mean, you mentioned pandemics as well, kind of writ large, you you know, widen the aperture beyond the the scope of of the Cleveland Museum of Natural History. Like, what what is the state of museums Mhmm. At right now, like, at in in the world that we live in?

Sonia Winner [00:41:51]:
Sure. Oh, so I think that, generally, people trust museums, and there's a lot of research that comes out about visiting museums and how we're really lucky natural history museums, people love to visit us. And they're ready to come back, and they're ready to come and see us. I think that they want to go to the regional museums. I think that not as many people international travelers are challenged. I think a lot of museums that have an international clientele, they haven't come back in the same way pre pandemic. That's what the numbers would show. But I also think too that, you know, museums are being challenged just like I know that you have, interviewed mayor Biv.

Sonia Winner [00:42:36]:
Who would have known some of the global issues that he has faced as mayor or even in higher education, what presidents have faced? And I think that our institution is, you know, we reflect the world. And so I think we always have to be on our best game in order to do that. And to be honest as well with the public on where we may fall short. I think that it's really important that we have all sectors of the community who can visit and love the museum. I think museums should be for every part of our community, and that elitist kind of perspective will not help museums. And I think that we're really lucky in this region that we have people that are thinking about that every day about and on Monday, we're gonna be celebrating the legacy of Martin Luther King Junior, and we're all gonna be open and free. And that's great, but what do we do every day to earn all family members here in this community to come here?

Jeffrey Stern [00:43:44]:
What do you wish more people understood both about museums generally and about the Cleveland Museum of Natural History?

Sonia Winner [00:43:53]:
So we're a top 10 institution of our kind, and I think a lot of people don't understand that. And I also think too, you know, look, we have a lot of focus on sports, and that's great. But we have, like, Super Bowl champions all around us, and I just wish people would understand that about our community. I mean, we have a world class art museum, a world class orchestra, the Rock Hall. We have world class institutions here, and I wish, you know, people need to own it and invest in us because we're the ones you know, we're contributing to the economy. $50,000,000 a year, you know, doing things that are really make a difference and employing people. So I I wish people would understand that. And then also, we have 5,000,000 objects, and we have PhDs, and we have, amazing programs that people can go to that are world class.

Sonia Winner [00:44:57]:
We are bringing the world here to Northeast Ohio, and I wish that more people understood that part of the discussion is that we have leading experts in the world. I mean, our chief science officer is the leading expert in the world on praying mantises. And you may think, okay. Well, who cares about that? Well, guess what? We should all care about insects and care about because as insect populations, declined, so does the food populate you know, food. And that's really important. So I think that that's wish I wish more people knew.

Jeffrey Stern [00:45:37]:
So I would imagine when you reflect on the the whole experience thus far, there are hundreds, thousands of stories that you could tell, but are there particular memories that you have of individual, you know, museum stories that that that you find interesting and wanna share?

Sonia Winner [00:45:57]:
So I I you know, first of all, my son learned to walk here. So, you know, that's one story for me personally as a mom is that, and it's just so funny. And then he hiked the Pacific Crest Trail. And I I always, you know, blame natural history museums for his love of everything outdoors. He actually became a salmon fisherman.

Jeffrey Stern [00:46:17]:
Oh, wow.

Sonia Winner [00:46:18]:
And then now he has, you know, a job a real job. I mean, not that being a salmon fisherman isn't, but, you know, he lives in Maine now, and he loves nature. I really do think that for each kid, I see that. I also love it when I go through the galleries, and I just see how interested the kids are. You can just see these bright and shiny faces, asking questions and being interested in learning. And I think that story goes on almost every day, every moment in the museum. And for me, that's very motivating. And I sometimes say with all due regard to my supervisors who were the board of trustees, I'm really doing my work not for them.

Sonia Winner [00:47:07]:
With all due respect, I'm really doing it for the kids who come and visit here. And especially for the kids that this is maybe their only opportunity to visit a museum and to think about that. Quite frankly, that's what motivates me. It's really the kids that may not come from families that can afford to come here all the time and to make it as affordable as possible and to really think about, how we can get all children excited about nature and science.

Jeffrey Stern [00:47:41]:
What do you feel the the next a hundred years of the museum holds? What are you most excited about?

Sonia Winner [00:47:46]:
I think it's the programming. I think it's about taking the museum and thinking about what goes inside here and how we can make connections in the community. I think technology could be a tool. I mean, we already use it for being the health science teacher in poor communities in Ohio and throughout the world. We use that and that distance learning idea, but I think technology is actually gonna help us, to connect, throughout the world. I also think that I think my generation has kind of failed on the environmental front. And yet, you know, there are some great solutions that are coming out about the environment, and I I hope that we can be this beacon of knowledge about health, human health and the health of the planet.

Jeffrey Stern [00:48:40]:
What have you learned about leadership in this role?

Sonia Winner [00:48:44]:
Gotta work on it every single day. And you just have to bring the right teams around you. It's all about the people. All of it cannot be done, by yourself, and it's all about the people. And you have to bring your authentic self. And that can sometimes be not not I'm not having a good day, and I need to just own it. Or it can be I just I need some help, in places. And people have to be willing to change, and that's a really hard thing to bring people around.

Sonia Winner [00:49:17]:
And I think that one of the hardest things as we were going through construction was just basic one zero one change management. Many ways, we were doing a merger between an old museum and a new museum, and that is always going to be hard. And now I think we're a little more in startup mode, which is very exciting and fun, but also can have a downside too because sometimes people are like, okay. There's so much going on and so much change. You know, we had in one day, a week or so ago, we had 4,000 people here, and that went from 200 the same time last year because of our construction. So think about being a staff member and having to scale in that way, and I think that that is something that we're really thinking about as an institution. Institution. We have a task force twenty twenty five that we put together about what the museum would look like when we opened our doors because we had no idea.

Sonia Winner [00:50:17]:
And so we open at 10:00, and by 11:00, our parking lot has been full. And so then we make an announcement. All employees move their, you know, to other places. And now we're thinking about how we can use that to our advantage. How can we use Uber, Lyft? How can we give credits to staff members if they're thinking about that? And what is that advantage? What are the things that we can share about public transportation, about other things? So we're learning every day.

Jeffrey Stern [00:50:48]:
What what's the most challenging part of it?

Sonia Winner [00:50:51]:
I think that you have to have a growth mindset about everything you do. And I I always want more. I wanna travel more. I wanna have more dogs. I wanna have more everything in my life. And, I think sometimes people that can be really hard for people to deal with me because I'm always a big dreamer. I'm always, I've always have been somebody like that and, and bringing people along because some people are really comfortable with where they are. And and so I've had to also learn how to listen to that as well.

Sonia Winner [00:51:29]:
But I'm moving fast, and that's okay too.

Jeffrey Stern [00:51:33]:
Yeah. Absolutely. I I think we've covered a lot of lot of ground here. As we kinda rounded out in in Cleveland to to bookend the conversation, I wanted to just kinda pose a greenfield question, which is, is there anything you wish I had asked you about? Something important in, you know, reflecting on your career personally, on the work that you're doing at the museum, something that that you feel is important that you would wanna share?

Sonia Winner [00:52:04]:
I think being a woman and being a leader, that is that's a real challenge. And I hope that, all of us can can give women and other people, the benefit of the doubt and the decisions that we make and be enthusiastic about us. And, that has always I think that I hope that, I've always tried to be a good mentor to to everyone who I supervise. But I do think sometimes women are not as beloved as, other other, as male leaders. And I hope in the future that we can change that and do more, to really take people as they are as leaders. And that is the one thing I think that, we're still working on as a country.

Jeffrey Stern [00:53:03]:
Yeah. How how do you think we can we can do better? Like, how optimistic are you about it? You know, what what is there well, if you could wave a magic wand, you know, and change something about it, what what would what would you wanna do?

Sonia Winner [00:53:15]:
I think it's more opportunities for for women to be in the room with other women and to be to see people that are different. You know, I think it's really important to have diverse teams in every aspect of it. I think it's just so important because you have a different mindset and you have people that are thinking differently. And I like people who challenge me. I don't like it when people go, okay. That sounds like a great idea. I like it when people go, that's a terrible idea. And how do you think we're gonna do that? Because I'm like the dreamer.

Sonia Winner [00:53:45]:
I like to explore and get people excited, but the execution, everything else, I need other people to come along with me. So I do think making sure you know, I'm very mindful of mentoring people and thinking about and even if I have to give negative feedback, and I give a lot of feedback. I'm very like, here's where we're going, and I'm then I move forward. I don't even remember because I want them to develop as individuals and to be good leaders and to understand that it's not always easy. But I don't have a crystal ball about how to do that other than to have more diversity in the room. And what I mean by that is diversity of all kinds.

Jeffrey Stern [00:54:32]:
And and mentorship to me feels correct in a lot of ways too.

Sonia Winner [00:54:37]:
Yeah. And but I think a lot of people are afraid to ask for help. And I guess my message would be don't don't think you have all the answers when you're, you know, 30 because you don't, and I don't even have them. And so to think about who could I call and I'll give you a story. You know, when I was in, the midst of COVID, I, you know, we were thinking about how can we take this workforce? What are we gonna do? Really how do we support each other? And, you know, I called Sandy Cutler, who is the former CEO of Eaton. And I said, I'm looking at all of this. How do I do this? And he was so generous. He said, okay.

Sonia Winner [00:55:21]:
You've got to think about retooling the organization. What do you think about what are different jobs that people can do? Because we wanted people to be able to work at home who were our visitor services staff. So what do we have them work on? And and, you know, that was just so helpful. And I don't think if if I were in a crisis, I don't think I would have thought I could call Sandy Cutler and ask him to help me. And that was just such a I was trying to be as brave. I was trying to be brave. And then Yeah. When he did that, he was so gracious and supportive.

Sonia Winner [00:55:58]:
And so for me, like, ask, ask for help. Don't be afraid.

Jeffrey Stern [00:56:04]:
Right. It's it's almost the brave thing to ask for help when when it's when you're not in crisis.

Sonia Winner [00:56:09]:
Some of us, we have a hard time learning that and it takes us long time. And, that was just a great learning opportunity for me, that somebody who has been through that. I'm really lucky that I have a number of people on the board who have former CEOs, James Hambrick from Lubrizol, other people who, when I'm in a tough spot, they they will advise me. And I think that that's that's another thing. Don't be afraid to ask for help and say, I don't I really don't know how I'm gonna figure this out. I mean, I call my friends across the street, my my next door neighbor.

Jeffrey Stern [00:56:47]:
Yes, sir. I will

Sonia Winner [00:56:48]:
call, you know, Bill and ask him something at the about the art museum. And he's you know, they're we're all so supportive of each other. That's the other thing. We're not competing with each other. We are actually competing with other cities, perhaps, but we're never competing with each other.

Jeffrey Stern [00:57:04]:
That I yeah. I was curious about the relationship with the the Cleveland Museum of Art and All of us. It's such an incredible density of institutions right there.

Sonia Winner [00:57:13]:
Yeah. But we're actually we're friends with each

Jeffrey Stern [00:57:16]:
other. Right. That makes sense.

Sonia Winner [00:57:17]:
We want all all of us want each other to do well because when the Rock Hall does well, we do well. So it's to be celebrated.

Jeffrey Stern [00:57:27]:
Absolutely. Well, in the spirit of celebrating Cleveland things, I will ask you our traditional closing question, which is for hidden gems in Cleveland. Things that you wish other people knew about, but perhaps they don't.

Sonia Winner [00:57:41]:
Well, I mean, I live in Little Italy, and I think a lot of people know about it. But I wish that people would visit not just during the feast. I think it's a great place just to walk around and see the art galleries and to have some food there and just to enjoy it because I think it's one of the places that's so walkable. And one of my favorite places in Cleveland is Lakeview Cemetery. So every Saturday when the weather is good, I climb that hill. And with my dog, my reluctant dog, who is not as happy to be going to Lakeview Cemetery because I think she can smell the coyotes. But it is it's so remarkable. And learning about the families and learning about all the people that were here and tying that all together.

Sonia Winner [00:58:29]:
To me, you know, I wanna you know, it's important to feel mortal every day and to hear those stories. I really have enjoyed that. You know, our assets on the lake, we should always remember how beautiful it is to look at that lake and to protect it. So those are the things I would say.

Jeffrey Stern [00:58:46]:
Yeah. Well, those are wonderful gems. Well, I just wanna thank you for for coming on, you know, sharing sharing more about the work you're doing, your story. It's, it's it's it's it's amazing.

Sonia Winner [00:58:58]:
Thank you so much. Thank you, Jeffrey. Thanks for the opportunity.

Jeffrey Stern [00:59:02]:
If if people had anything they wanted to follow-up with you about I mean, obviously, they should go to the museum, but, you know, where, where where would you direct them?

Sonia Winner [00:59:12]:
Come and see me. I'm I'm always here. I'm generally here. I'm only five minutes away. So, I you know, just come and see me and come and visit the museum and, you know, view our website. We have a new website. You can reach out to me via email. I'll get to you once I've gone through my texts and phone calls and everything else.

Sonia Winner [00:59:32]:
Yeah. So and everyone always has ideas, and we've had a number of people who have had really great ideas about the museum. And one of the great things about our new space, we actually have not worked on a portion of the museum that we're waiting for visitor feedback and on what they want to see more of. So Oh,

Jeffrey Stern [00:59:53]:
perfect. Thank you.

Sonia Winner [00:59:55]:
Okay. Thank you. Okay. Take care.

Jeffrey Stern [01:00:01]:
That's all for this week. Thank you for listening. We'd love to hear your thoughts on today's show. So if you have any feedback, please send over an email to jeffrey@layoftheland.fm, or find us on Twitter at pod lay of the land or @sternfa,jefe. If you or someone you know would make a good guest for our show, please reach out as well and let us know. And if you enjoy the podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on iTunes or on your preferred podcast player. Your support goes a long way to help us spread the word and continue to bring the Cleveland Founders and builders we love having on the show. We'll be back here next week at the same time to map more of the land.

Jeffrey Stern [01:00:38]:
The Lay of the Land podcast was developed in collaboration with The Up Company, LLC. At the time of this recording, unless otherwise indicated, we do not own equity or other financial interests in the company which appear on the show. All opinions expressed by podcast participants are solely their own and do not reflect the opinions of any entity which employs us. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a basis for investment decisions. Thank you for listening, and we'll talk to you next week.