#20: Mac Anderson (Cleveland Kitchen)

Mac Anderson (Cleveland Kitchen) [00:00:00]:

We are actually the featured brand in the number one top ten food Trends for 2021 from Whole Foods, because it's the trend of wellness served as America looks to achieve nutrition through what we're putting in our bodies and what we're eating. We're also looking for great, delicious flavors, land functional worldly flavors, but also add that additional benefit of probiotic fermentation and function. So so definitely really cool to be capturing on this ground, I think, you know, not only the benefits that are shown through health, but also through sheer flavor.

Jeffrey Stern [00:00:33]:

Let's discover the Cleveland entreprenuership ecosystem. We are telling the stories of its entrepreneurs and those supporting them. Welcome to the Lay of the Land podcast, where we are exploring what people are building in Cleveland. I'm your host, Jeffrey Stern, and today's guest is Mack Anderson, and we are talking fermentation. So Mac is a co founder and chief marketing officer of Cleveland Kitchen, formerly known as Cleveland Kraut, where they are on a mission to create world class culinary fermented foods for everyone. Mac is a Cleveland native with a passion for business, for good food, and for good people. And after studying economics at Miami University, mac started a career in finance and law before ultimately pursuing his longtime passion for business to help start Cleveland Kraut. With his brother and brother in law as the chief marketing officer, mac has grown Cleveland Kraut sales from a side hustle at a farmers market to the number one brand in Sauerkraut nationwide, and leader in the fresh fermented space with distribution in over 9000 locations. This conversation left me really hungry for food, but quenched with knowledge. So please enjoy our conversation. So in the spirit of transparency and so that everyone tuning in, can really appreciate your graciousness as a guest. This is actually our second recording on account of some technical difficulties that we had, and I got to say, I am even more excited to have you back. So thank you for coming on to share your story, Mac.

Mac Anderson (Cleveland Kitchen) [00:02:04]:

No, of course. Happy to be here again. Luckily, the story hasn't changed since we last spoken, so should be all set there.

Jeffrey Stern [00:02:12]:

All right, well, let's tell the story I'd love to start if you could just kind of paint a picture here of the inception of Cleveland crowd and how your personal upbringing has kind of laid the groundwork for that.

Mac Anderson (Cleveland Kitchen) [00:02:25]:

Yeah, absolutely. It's always an interesting question. People are wondering how three young guys in Cleveland got into selling aged cabbage around the country. But our story, it starts way back in the early 90s. My mother studied biology and also is a chef. She studied at Le Cordon Bleu in Paris. And so she always had a great focus on, know, what she was putting in her family's body, what she was putting in her own. You know, that definitely translated to her dragging myself, my older brother and CEO, Drew, and then obviously our older sister before that. But out to the great local farms here in northeast Ohio, out to Amish country, kicking and screaming every weekend to pick fresh produce, to get great fresh produce or livestock and meats. And she started to know well before Cleveland had anything like a Whole Foods or even a wild oats back then that there was definitely a market for natural foods, for fresh farm raised produce for free range pigs, chickens, grass fed beef. And so she actually started the North Union Farmers Market. It's a nonprofit here in Cleveland, Ohio. So she founded it in 95. So child labor laws aside, I was out there schlepping produce land, working with farmers alongside my siblings, my brother and my sister. And it was always our summer and weekend job all the way up through college. It was just our built in job that we would be managing markets, working at markets. And we really got a feel for not only what great Ohio farmers were, who these families were, the attention that they put into their farms, to everything that they're producing, to the yields, to the harvest, but also really started to see the farm to table movement growing with the burgeoning food scene that was kind of emerging here in Cleveland, as well as seeing some of these younger makers start to emerge and food producers. And we definitely took note of what made a great food product, how it was packaged, how these brands were starting to engage with consumers, and then, obviously, as social media started to emerge, how different brands were leveraging that to extend the brand out beyond just the farmers market. And so we really paid attention to those brands especially that made it on grocery store shelves. This definitely stuck with us seeing these brands end up on grocery store shelves. And my brother actually graduated college with a degree in business statistics and headed to SunTrust in Richmond, Virginia on their mortgage analytics team. And he know, greatly missing kind of that Cleveland Fair. It's not necessarily my heritage or my brother's heritage, but that Eastern European, that very Cleveland and definitely Midwestern Fair of Pierogi, Kilbasi, all those good. So, you know, he was making all those things in his apartment. He was getting back to his roots, going to his farmers market in Richmond every Saturday, buying fresh produce, chopping it up, and really fell in love with the art of know, fast forward. He comes back here to Cleveland to work for Key Bank, and he's having a beer with my sister's fiance at the time, Luke Visnik, our COO and co founder. And Luke was an architect at the time, another young professional. But they kind of figured out over beers that they were both making sauerkraut. So bit of a strange hobby to figure out that your future brother in law also. And so they're kind of having a few beers, crunching and munching on each of their kind of first recipes and kind of realizing, doing some quick market analysis, that it's not in grocery store shelves. We'd stern, obviously, the rise of brands. And then we'd kind of seen from a larger business and capital perspective that there's definitely investment coming into these smaller, emerging foods, that natural foods are definitely on fire, that Whole Foods is growing at a clip, and all these great brands and products are starting to really gain shelf space, not only in your local natural food store, but also in nationwide. You know, they actually taught me how to while I was at Miami, Ohio, my housemates, my buddies, were wondering what the heck was going on in our kitchen, what was bubbling away. I'm sure they, you know, they thought I was a pretty normal kid right up until I started chopping up cabbage and aging it in our cupboards. But come barbecue season, everybody enjoyed the fresh flavor, the crunch. It was definitely elevating our diet. That was rather heavily influenced with light beer, as most college kids were. But we kind of knew that we had a great tasting product. Land the younger generation was definitely open to trying it, and so I moved back. Land got a job in finance here locally. And we would all luke would leave the architecture firm and Drew would leave key pick me up. I was at Jones Day at the time. And we'd go to the commercial kitchen. Land work till two in the morning, four nights a week, and then sell on the weekends. And what really kept us going during those weeks of actually the year and a half of very little sleep and a lot of hustle was the fact that consumers kept coming back week after week for not only more of their favorite flavor, but they were also seeking our new flavors and they kept farmers Market is a great place because it's one of the only places, especially as a food or beverage maker, that you can actually get direct consumer feedback. And they're going to pay you for it. It's kind of invaluable for those fledgling bootstrap startups to be able to get that kind of feedback. And we started to see the usage know, beyond just hot dogs, Reubens and sausage really grow out and actually turn into on salads. Eggs in the morning, avocado, toast, fish tacos. Of course, there's nothing better than a little bratwurst with NarNar or roasted garlic. But those traditional usage equations were truly emerging well beyond that. And then the likes of Iron Chef Mike Simon, he'd send his shoe chef down to get some for his menu pairings. At the end of 2015, we kind of all quit our jobs, poured everything we had into it, and launched into hynens was our first retailer back then. Land today we are in almost 10,000 stores nationwide. We are the number one brand in premium refrigerated sauerkraut. Land we've expanded our product lines into naturally fermented dressings. Land now Kimchi, as well. So really excited that those are both products are almost in 2000 stores each. So really seeing a lot of growth here. But yeah, it's been a fun ride.

Jeffrey Stern [00:09:15]:

Yeah, that's amazing. That's an incredible footprint. And I definitely want to dive a little deeper into the business and what you guys are working on. But I do want to take a quick step back and take a look at this from maybe a more macro level. So beyond those with Eastern European roots who are getting into fermentation to explore their own cultural land familial history, there does appear, like you mentioned to be this mass proliferation of and societal drift towards fermentation across all different kinds of foods. I'd like to get your perspective on what is going on here. Why are people rediscovering and loving fermentation now?

Mac Anderson (Cleveland Kitchen) [00:09:55]:

I'm just that good at marketing, Jesse. Yeah. Across cultures, it's an ancient way to preserve the harvest. So anyone who was growing vegetables after you traded or bartered everything away, you take what you had left during the winter and you put it in a croc or a drum or bury it, and your family would kind of preserve well before refrigeration was around. And you get these great nutritional benefits and also extended the beverages like tea and kombucha, which is obviously an ancient Asian tea. And folks just it's been an ancient remedy. It's been an ancient way to preserve and add flavor. And I think here in America, we're just definitely returning as a society to more focused whole food diets to really thinking about what we're putting in our body and seeking out foods that are naturally functional and beneficial to our overall health. And we're definitely capturing in on that ground as well. So from things like kimchi to kombucha to everything like yogurt and all that good stuff, it's really cool to see everything start to emerge and come back. And we're just kind of following you. Look at Southeast Asia. It's eaten every day from all kinds of dishes know, obviously Europe, Germany, Belgium, they eat it all. The been it's been fantastic to really see that start to come back. And we were actually the featured brand land the number one top ten food trends for 2021 from Whole Foods because it's the trend of wellness served as America looks to really achieve nutrition through what we're putting in our bodies and what we're eating. We're also looking for great delicious flavors, land, functional worldly flavors, but also add that additional benefit of probiotic fermentation and function. So definitely really cool to be capturing on this ground swell. And I think not only the benefits that are shown through health, but also through sheer flavor. And people just don't fully understand everything that probably is fermented. Obviously, yogurt is one of those things that early led the charge, but even something like Frank's Red Hot is a fermented hot sauce, so it's definitely there for flavor purposes as well.

Jeffrey Stern [00:12:18]:

Yeah, you can have your crowd and eat it too.

Mac Anderson (Cleveland Kitchen) [00:12:21]:

That's right. Hey, I might have to trademark that.

Jeffrey Stern [00:12:27]:

You got the best of all worlds.

Mac Anderson (Cleveland Kitchen) [00:12:28]:

Give you full credit there.

Jeffrey Stern [00:12:31]:

I want to build on that a little bit and maybe just at a high level speak to from the probiotic perspective, separate a little bit of the fact from fiction. Why is this good for us? What is going on there?

Mac Anderson (Cleveland Kitchen) [00:12:43]:

Cabbage itself, just as a vegetable, as a raw vegetable, naturally has a ton of lactobacillus. This is very healthy, naturally occurring bacteria. And the process of fermentation, natural lacto fermentation that we put it through basically just allows those to proliferate in a naturally oxygen depleted environment. So we essentially break down the cell walls, add salt, and then whatever veggies we're going to do, or spices. And the salt helps pull out the water from the cell structure. And the in an anaerobic environment, we seal it, we block it off from oxygen. But CO2 can escape because that is a byproduct of fermentation. These naturally occurring, very beneficial bacteria do proliferate. So there's a few billion in every pouch. And it is a really fantastic way to supercharge and balance your gut flora, get those naturally occurring, great beneficial bacteria down there. They also really help, there's enzymes in there that really help pull nutrients from your food. And also the nutrients that are in your food are able to really be maximized within your digestive process. So you're not only getting a healthier gut, you're getting more from every good food that you're eating. And then good gut health does lend itself more and more. Studies year after year keep coming back about overall mental health, overall body health. So it's definitely at the core, no pun intended, of a good foundational health system.

Jeffrey Stern [00:14:12]:

Got it. Thank you for explaining that. So you mentioned kind of the footprint that you have today beyond the original perhaps vision plan to take over the world with Sauerkraut, with the rebranding of the business from Cleveland Kraut to Cleveland Kitchen. I'd love to get your perspective there on the broader vision that comes with that. You mentioned different product offerings that you're expanding into. But when you think about the vision and impact that you hope to have with Cleveland Kitchen opposed to Cleveland Crowd historically, what are you guys thinking through on that front?

Mac Anderson (Cleveland Kitchen) [00:14:48]:

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, obviously we did kind of plan the business out to be a nationwide brand. But when you started a farmers market as a local vendor, calling ourselves Cleveland Crowd is definitely limiting. So we wanted to ensure that we built a foundation on crowd as a core product line and really start to saturate the market and start to take category leadership. But we've always had vision to expand outside of crowd and really build a platform of delicious food that is fermented and pickled and provides great value. Not only is one of these things that you're kind of hooked on you're, loving it on so many dishes throughout your daily diet, but does have that halo of health. So transitioning into Cleveland Kitchen, not only does it allow us to keep making our city proud, but gives us that opportunity to build a platform brand and to really build ourselves into the nationwide kind of household name. We had a lot of learnings. We were in the Kraft Heinz Incubator. So their first class in 2018 I think 500, 600 teams businesses applied. We were one out of five that actually made it into the incubator. And we did very well in our class. We were definitely able to leverage a ton of great benefits from such a large food CPG, from data that otherwise would have been unavailable to a small brand like us, to developing. We were already pretty good at sales and had a great product. We didn't do anything to the product, but really developing the understanding of calling on the likes of Kroger and Walmart. And I've been lucky enough to schlep together great plans and be really good at it, but continuing to hone with some of the best in the world in terms of CPG salesmen and then know, looking at data and trends and sitting with Michelle St. Jacques, who was head of Brand at Kraft Heinz at the time. She's now the CMO at Miller Coors. And she was very helpful in sitting with us among the other leadership as well, but kind of helping us to understand where we could stretch in terms of products into really building ourselves into a 200 million dollar a year platform brand and building something that Cleveland can really be proud of. We've got 40 employees here in downtown Cleveland and we hope to continue to grow and to continue to build ourselves up as a great employer and a beacon that Cleveland can be proud of. So yeah, I think it just allows for us to get into more exciting platform categories, into larger categories. Sauerkraut although it's had since we've started probably close to over 1000% growth, it's still a smaller category. So expanding into dressings, for instance, allows us to get into more people's carts, into more people's hearts. We're in a more traditional usage occasion and if folks are a little trepidacious to try fermented cabbage, starting with a dressing that just has this health tweak and helps them understand that fermentation means flavor and function, is something that's great to us. And then getting into products like kimchi, which obviously is a great traditional fermented dish that's been around for thousands and thousands of years. Land the velocities and the use education there are fantastic and it's just very exciting for us to expand here.

Jeffrey Stern [00:18:22]:

Yeah, I want to build a little bit on the Cleveland specific part of the brand and what have you found to be the implications of tying the brand to Cleveland and the reception feedback pushback anything that people are letting you know about the Cleveland branding, especially as you've built this national footprint.

Mac Anderson (Cleveland Kitchen) [00:18:43]:

It was definitely obviously it helped us get off to a running hot start here in Cleveland locally, and it proved to be a little bit of challenge in scaling beyond this market. But luckily, we jumped into the New York City market pretty early on, and we're doing very well, so I could really use that as a test case. And then we started to get data back that Cleveland has this fantastic there's a feel to it. It gives a meaning to the brand. There's a blue collar, hardworking tenacious just feeling to Cleveland land the work ethic here. And we're an unassuming but great city, and I think that has definitely lent itself. But there were challenges. A good friend and great supporter of everything local and a great partner of ours, paul Abbott from Giant Eagle. We were crushing it in his Ohio stores and market district and even in Indiana. And he's you know, you guys are doing really well. I'm a little hesitant to put you in the but, you know, I can't plan a gram you which means draw you into the sets, but I'll give you approval, and you can go sell them one by know, I was like, all right, enough. So after give me the you know after a month, we'd sold ourselves in every store. We were off and cranking. I saw him a couple of months later at a food show, and he just came up and shook my hand. He's like, I'm so sorry I ever doubted you guys are crushing. And maybe that was the fact that to that point, cleveland hadn't beat Pittsburgh in any kind of sport in quite some time. So I don't know if they had the same animosity back then, but no, it's given a name, a meaning, a purpose to the brand. It makes it feel like it's a local brand. It gives it this trustworthiness, and we've seen it really play itself out very well nationwide. And it's a pride point for us and hopefully a pride point for the city.

Jeffrey Stern [00:20:31]:

Yeah, it's authentic.

Mac Anderson (Cleveland Kitchen) [00:20:32]:

That's right.

Jeffrey Stern [00:20:34]:

You've mentioned some of the learnings that you've had going from farmers market to where you are today. I just want to get your perspective as really a first time founder and kind of having stumbled into this out of love of fermentation and the product and what you're making from a business perspective. When you look back, what are some of the things that have surprised you about building this company and brand as a first time founder?

Mac Anderson (Cleveland Kitchen) [00:21:03]:

Six, almost seven years now. Feels some days like it's only been less than a year, some days like a lifetime. So we've definitely had a ton of learnings. Obviously, there's always a ton of surprises in the startup journey, but I think the main thing that stuck out is how every big win land, every major milestone that you set up for yourself. And I think setting goals is definitely important. Land building out a yearly plan into a three and five year plan is really key, but you'll hit some of these goals, maybe it's getting Whole Foods nationwide or launching with Walmart and Next doors and then you'd think that's that's going to be the mean. The first time it came when we launched in high ends, like, oh man, we've done. We're at high land ends. This is amazing. Yeah, we made it. And then we're seeing the volume and it's like, oh, sauerkraut's not people aren't buying three sauerkrauts a lay in each household, so we got to go. We're just getting started. And then yeah, it's always like, okay, how quickly we transition. Okay, what's next? How can we continue to build on this? Getting on the store shelves is definitely not the hardest part. It's making sure that it's definitely a big part of it, but as you grow and get these, it's making sure that you're supporting it, building the category, driving sales and all the challenges that come with it. For us, it's been really key to be extremely data driven. We get that from a foundation of finance and really understanding what our key performance indicators are, making sure all of our partners do, making sure our team fully is understanding of what our goals are, having great transparency from the top down, being able to lead a team and being humble when you have outside advisors. We've been great about not knowing what we don't know. I think there's always benefit to coming in as a potential disruptor or bringing new life to a sleepy category, not acting the same way a traditional CPG would, but also that there's a ton of learning that we can do from our advisors and from our guy Terry, who brings 40 years of unbelievable experience and really helps me be a better leader. Land a better leverager of our sales team. So being open to growth and to outside input and to being able to move quickly and deal with rapid fire changes has definitely been a key learning. Land something that all of a sudden you're in the middle of the firestorm and you never thought you'd be there, you never thought you'd get to this point and you're looking back at all these store counts and I thought, oh man, I didn't even know this was this many stores in America. How quickly it goes is definitely it's hard to believe. It's been almost seven years.

Jeffrey Stern [00:23:53]:

Yeah, it's an incredible journey and I'm sure a lot more to go.

Mac Anderson (Cleveland Kitchen) [00:23:58]:

Just getting started.

Jeffrey Stern [00:23:59]:

Just getting started. In terms of just getting started, how do you go about capitalizing, this kind of business? You get this early success at the farmers market. You know, people are it's resonating that you're getting that feedback. How do you take it from that point of inception to funding this business?

Mac Anderson (Cleveland Kitchen) [00:24:18]:

Yeah, absolutely. So I think being able to have Drew, our brother, come from a financial planning background, know, setting up quarterly all the way to five year projections with KeyBank. He definitely was able know early on throw together capital needs and expectations and well before we started really going out and starting to fundraise, having that in place and having a full understanding of if we were to jump into retail, if we were to start, we leveraged Luke, who's a great architect, to build out our facility, what do we actually need? And I think we were prior to us launching in Heinens, we were at a Browns tailgate giving out little still in our deli style containers, and we'd go up to anyone grilling and drop off, hey, we're Cleveland crowd, give it a try on your hot dogs and brats. And, you know, one of my best friends, he was tailgating there with his dad, who was Dr. Julian Kim. He was the chief medical officer in oncology head of surgery at uh, so obviously knows this stuff on the science side, but is also of Korean descent, and his wife is of German descent. So our NarNar was like the perfect marriage for their marriage, and they were huge fans. And Drew and Doc Kim got to we were I wouldn't say we were three sheets to the wind, but there was wind and there were sheets, and we were drinking and talking about the business and where we wanted to go. And I think Dr. Kim just turned to my brother and said, hey, what do you need? And my brother spit out some small number, and we kind of thought, oh, this is just banter at a Browns game. It was fun. It was great to walk through the, you know, the next day, my good friend Justin texted me. He's like, hey, my dad needs your guys'email. I guess you're talking about investment. And so that was one of know, we were lucky enough to get Luke's mother in. She really wanted to the, you know, just friends and family early on that allowed us to grow to a certain then, you know, we went out and raised our first convertible debt note and you make a ton of contacts at these food shows. There's obviously a lot of excitement around emerging brands and just building up the network that way and being smart about where you take money from, because it's easy to say this when you've already fundraised and all these things, but you're really not just raising capital. If you got a great product, your idea is good. There's always going to be dry powder out there. There's always going to be folks who are looking to invest in great businesses and great founders. So finding anything that can provide value beyond that. And we've been really lucky to get folks in that have either a ton of CPG experience or built their own food manufacturing companies that were able to really help us in all facets of our own operation. And then folks like Turn Capital who came in in our latest equity round here locally, that are able to tie us into local resources and to be able to continue to bring more capital and wealth into this city has been great. So really being selective on those who you want to partner with for the next ideally decades, however long it's going to be. Land understanding what their goals for the company are definitely key and then seeing how you can leverage that network. And so we've been very lucky with our group of fantastic investors and they've lended a tremendous amount of expertise on top of their capital. So I'd say if you are a founder or someone who's looking to raise capital, be rather picky. I mean, there's sometimes a call for, hey, let's just get the check in, but if you can be leverage it to make sure that you're getting some other provision of value.

Jeffrey Stern [00:28:00]:

Yeah, it reminds me of this quote. I do not remember who said it, but it's, I think, a good segue to what I want to ask you about next. But it goes something like if you can't see yourself working with someone for life, don't work with the for a day.

Mac Anderson (Cleveland Kitchen) [00:28:17]:

Yeah.

Jeffrey Stern [00:28:17]:

In the spirit of that and working with people for life, personally, it's always been kind of a dream of mine to go into business with my brothers. Land I'd love to just get your perspective on how that dynamic of working with your family land building this company, really as a family has gone.

Mac Anderson (Cleveland Kitchen) [00:28:34]:

Yeah, well, luckily I have to spend the rest of my life with these guys, so it's kind of already built in. No? Yeah, I think any founder you're going to go through something with this person that is apart from your life partner, your husband or wife is probably you're never going to have this amount of time, this amount of stress with another human being. So my brother's always been a great role model to me and who I looked up to growing up. And we had always kind of planned to go into business together with Luke coming on board and he had an extremely complimentary set of skills to us. Obviously, I'm good at sales and I knew I had that edge. Land was great at marketing, studied these things. Drew had his finance and was already my built in leader. So CEO made great sense and shouldering the burden of CFO early on as well. And then Luke, with his being an architect, processes and ensuring things are going according to plan and straight lines and organization, all those things, as you're a food manufacturer, lend very well. And for us to be able to really set clear kind of boundaries for what our responsibilities were and then just to go and attack them really helped. I mean, I won't say there's never been obviously any founder if. You go through an entire founder's journey and you're not having arguments, I'd wonder if you're human, but there are going to be disagreements. And we've always kind of said, hey, let's have a voracious internal debate, fierce internal debate and one outside voice. And luckily enough, growing up with my brother, we got enough tussles. I'm sure you've grown up with a brother. You always will. That I could be screaming or we could tackle each other in the next ten minutes. Oh, you want to go grab us? We're laughing at something. So I think Luke had to get we're definitely a little bit wild. We like to just go do it and figure it out along the way. And having him there to also lend his organizational abilities to help us build that thing, as know, build the plane as we're falling off the cliff, as it were, worked out great. And then every win is sweeter when you think about, hey, we're building this for our family, we're building this for Cleveland, we're building this for our team, our investors, our employees, all of our stakeholders. But when it's family, you're going into battle with those you want to trust. And that's the other thing is work. I think as a founder, work never really stops. But any family function gathering, holidays, we're talking about it talking shop. Exactly. And it's been great for us and I think it will continue to be for as long as Cleveland kitchen is producing. Great.

Jeffrey Stern [00:31:18]:

Yeah, yeah. What's the family throwing down from Cleveland kitchen at family eatings? What are the favorites?

Mac Anderson (Cleveland Kitchen) [00:31:25]:

Yeah, so you might not be able to tell from looking at me, but my grandmother is Burmese and that's where we got the NarNar, the curry crowd, and definitely the influence of Kimchi. She immigrated to Detroit in the 50s. So in the 50s as a Burmese immigrant with my grandfather, any kind of southeast Asian community, whether it was Thai, Korean, Chinese, everything, it was all like, hey, let's gather, let's share cuisine. So my favorite food is curry. We always will get my mom to make a fresh pork or beef curry, sometimes lamb if she's feeling up to it. But yeah, we love to cook. Both luke and Drew kind of battle on wood fire pizzas. I'm great on stir fry. I actually make a great dan dan. Noodle whenever my girl land myself are hosting. Goes great with NarNar land Kimchi.

Jeffrey Stern [00:32:21]:

Yeah, I was going to ask about the pairings.

Mac Anderson (Cleveland Kitchen) [00:32:23]:

Yeah, absolutely. So we grew know my mom had a ton of Korean friends growing up, so we had Kimchi in our fridge almost probably more frequently than sauerkraut. And so it's always been definitely something that we work into dishes and our narna always definitely inspired by that a bit. But I throw the with pizza. I mean, you can top a pizza with a little roasted garlic, a little narna or something after the bake, like you would like a peppercini. Just to add a little freshness, a little crunch. You get a probiotic benefit there. But we also love the smoked meats and obviously the heaviness of the meat and know, acidic and tart like a sauerkraut. Cuts it very well with curry or a stir fry that I make. Or the dan dan, obviously curry crowd. Or our NarNar go very well. They've got those flavor profiles. The NarNar has Sriracha leeks, garlic, roasted red pepper flakes. So it definitely leans on the side of the Kimchi Land curry crowd with turmeric and ginger and curry powder and mustard seed. Definitely has that aromatic flavor and a nice warm heat. I'd say we definitely lean that way. My mother, obviously, is just a great chef, so anytime we can get over there, we try and do a good family gathering every Sunday, and we're still lucky to. It's shaped us as a culinary brand and a culinary family. So I haven't had dinner yet. My mouth's starting to water.

Jeffrey Stern [00:33:49]:

Got me very hungry. Over on the on the topic, though, I would be remiss if I didn't ask you about the Cleveland dining scene. And I just want your perspective here. There's no direction, just your take.

Mac Anderson (Cleveland Kitchen) [00:34:05]:

Absolutely. So again, my very first food was dim sum down at Liwa. It was my first solid food when I was a kid. So we've had an affinity for Asiatown. Actually, one of our very first family frequent restaurants that we were lucky enough to partner with on our Kimchi is Korea House. So if you haven't been just really phenomenal Korean barbecue, super traditional, or Kimbap, the bagogi jap chila's noodles are phenomenal. Obviously, kimchi pancake you can't beat, but we were able to work with their chefs there. Again, a great point of Cleveland pride and really do a really cool, authentic, traditional recipe that would make Korea and Cleveland proud. So got a shout out, my friends at Korea House. You can't go wrong, really in know Szechuan gourmet if you like. A spicy, traditional Szechuan food is phenomenal. Map of Thailand if you're on the East Side, peppermint is probably my favorite Thai spot. We've got some great partners. Obviously would be remiss if I didn't mention Mike Simon's, mabel's great, great barbecue. His burger joint, Bee Spot. Big supporters of ours. They have NarNar on the pickle bar, and then at Mabel's, they have NarNar on every tray. We got my friend down here again on the East Side lockstock and brisket, some of the most traditional, delicious brisket sandwiches. He also has one of the best chicken sandwiches in the city. I think the only spot that might come close or might be in contention is our good friend Larder so Jeremy Amansky, who's also an excellent Fermentationist and loves koji that deli down in Ohio City. Everything there is fantastic. Skip over for a great sandwich at Urban Twine, the Homies at Black Pig or Ubantu, which is he's just transitioned it to kind of a Japanese bar, like small plate style sasa here for sushi. Here on the east side there's a lot of great. I love flour if you're going far east for Italian dante, great guy. I mean, that's the thing about Cleveland. We've got so many great food, amazing chefs. Obviously you can't go wrong with a traditional. I know you're from New York so cat's deli, but we got slimens here.

Jeffrey Stern [00:36:17]:

It's fantastic.

Mac Anderson (Cleveland Kitchen) [00:36:18]:

Slimens is phenomenal. So goes great with crowd. Can't beat it. But yeah, we're a good food city if you're into food tourism. Got to come to Cleveland.

Jeffrey Stern [00:36:28]:

Absolutely.

Mac Anderson (Cleveland Kitchen) [00:36:28]:

Now I'm really hungry.

Jeffrey Stern [00:36:31]:

I'm ready for it. And on that we can wrap this up here the closing question that we have for everyone coming on is their favorite hidden gem in Cleveland. I feel like you just unearthed like many, many just on the culinary what? Hidden gems.

Mac Anderson (Cleveland Kitchen) [00:36:48]:

Hidden gems. I mean, everything for me, I probably am not going to go back to just Korea house because once things get back to normal, not only are they great friends and partners but just doing a friends or family. Just Korean barbecue dinner you can throw down on the grill, doing some kampai shots of know, great Korean beer. Think, you know, maybe there's a lot of Cleveland that hasn't discovered it yet. And you can get it if, you're know, until, until we get to those days. It is available on DoorDash. But yeah, I think just really leveraging and exploring Asiatown, especially Korea house, obviously a big favorite liwa land. The whole Asiatown center. I mean, that was one of the great things throughout the pandemic when Whole Foods high end giant eagle had runs on rice and there's nothing you can go down to the parking shop and we were all taken care.

Jeffrey Stern [00:37:40]:

Yeah.

Mac Anderson (Cleveland Kitchen) [00:37:40]:

I feel like if you haven't explored to a full extent the Asia town and everything it has to offer, I definitely recommend it. But I just thought there's a really good Italian spot. Oh, la campana. It's like in a strip mall, which is like if it's come highly recommended, it's in a strip mall. You know, it's good. That's like pretty much every good restaurant in La. It's like some in a strip. It's like I think it's over near Parma. It's on the west Side for sure. But lay Capana for some great traditional, very small, really cool family owned Italian restaurant. But I'd say for anyone who comes to Cleveland or lives in Cleveland, you haven't explored Asiatown. Get over there.

Jeffrey Stern [00:38:17]:

No, I'll second it. I'll second it. Well, Mac, I really again appreciate you coming on and sharing your story and I'm going to go eat some food right now.

Mac Anderson (Cleveland Kitchen) [00:38:26]:

Yeah, I'm starving. Thanks so much for having me. It's always a blast.

Jeffrey Stern [00:38:32]:

That's all for this week. Thanks for listening. We'd love to hear your thoughts on today's show. So shoot us an email at layoftheland at upside FM or find us on Twitter at Podlayoftheland or at Sternhefe EFE. We'll be back here next week at the same time to map more of the land. If you or someone you know would make a good guest for our show, please email us or find us on Twitter and let us know. And if you love our show, please leave a review on itunes that goes a long way in helping us spread the word and continue to help bring high quality guests to the show. Taken. Horton and Jeffrey Stern developed the Lay of the Land podcast in collaboration with the upCompany LLC. At the time of this recording, we do not own equity or other financial interests in the companies which appear on the show. Unless otherwise indicated, all opinions expressed by podcast participants are solely their own and do not reflect the opinions of Founders Get Funds and its affiliates, or actual and its affiliates, or any entity which employs us. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a basis for investment decisions. We have not considered your specific financial situation nor provided any investment advice on this show. Thanks for listening Land. We'll talk to you next week.